Wall & Browne, Stay Makers, Taylors and Habit Makers

[Geordie daughter]

Can anyone help me with the identity of Mr Wall, before I go completely round the bend? I believe that he may be the John Wall whose son John Browne Wall was baptised in 1793, Bristol, but can find nothing more about him. Wall and Browne had premises at Broad Mead in the 1780s, according to their rather lovely trade card, and this is confirmed by an entry in Matthews' New Bristol Directory for 1793-4 which reads "Brown [sic], John, Taylor and Stay-maker, 5, Broad-mead," but there is no sign at all of Mr Wall.

[ciderdrinker]

Hello
The baptsim of another son John Browne Wall in 30 Oct1796 gives their address as Hillgrove st,St James Bristol.
Dad John Wall seems to have married /Esther Browne 27 Jan 1777 at St Giles n the Fields london.
wit John Browne and Jos Stevens

Looks like Mary Ann 21sep 1785 /bapt 31.3.1786 , Sarah 1.10.1786 bapt 12th Dec ,George 4.7.1788,Ann 7 Dec 1789 ,Harriet 15.3.1791,Esther bapt 21.3./29 Sep 1795 at same chapel,Sophia Elizabeth 17 Dec 1798/2.4.1799

Esther makes it to the 1841 census as
Esther 83 Indep N of Victoria St with daughter Sophia 40 y and servant Mary Clement 14.
she dies the following year Mar qtr 1842.

possible death for John Wall age 65 St Johns Bridge 14 May 1817 Bristol st John the baptist

Older children may have been baptised at Norwich
Mary Anne st Augustine 28 June 1778 and Martha at st Saviour 13.8.1780.

There is a possible entry for Esther Browne at Gt Yarmouth d of Thomas and Esther  mariner 14.5.1758 at the Presbyterian Chapel
I'm guessing she's the sister of John Browne staymaker.

I'll see what else I can find

Ciderdrinker

[Geordie daughter]

Cidermaker, you are absolutely brilliant, and you may just have pointed me in the direction I need to look to fill in some yawning gaps in the Browne tree. It does look very much like Esther is John's sister (though in that case, she won't be the one baptised in Gt Yarmouth); In later years, John mentions a daughter of his named Esther in a letter to his son William, though I can't for the life of me find a baptism for her. That Esther married a Dr French, possibly in America.

John himself was the son of William Browne and mother unknown, born circa 1754. He may have been born in either Honiton or Bristol or somewhere else entirely, as William (born Honiton c.1721) only pops up on the radar again c.1762 when he splits from his business partner Mr Pilfold in Bath, to set up as peruke maker and hair dresser on his own account. John appears to have arrived in Bristol around the mid- to late-1780s (2 children baptised together in Lewins Mead registers), so it certainly looks as if the Wall/Browne partnership was formed elsewhere, possibly London? 

[DRH123]

John Browne Wall was apprenticed to an Iron Merchant called William Weaver Davis in 1810. His father was given as John Wall, tea dealer. He became a burgess in 1818, apprentice to Weaver Davis, but as an accountant.

Bristol RO has leases from 1790 and 1820 involving John Wall, tea dealer.

So perhaps John Wall withdrew from his partnership with Browne sometime in the late 1780s and took up tea dealing.

There's also an apprenticeship record involving a John Wall that I don't understand.

A certain Thomas Davis was apprenticed to Edward Poole, Peruke maker, in 1786 and then transferred to a John Wall in 1789. John Wall's trade is not recorded and in the comments box there is "Not at this office    Discharged".

David

[Geordie daughter]

From what you've found, David, it does very much look as if John Wall changed trades mid-stream. That is what had me stumped for so long because I was expecting to find a staymaker and taylor, not a tea dealer. The partnership must have split up in 1790 or thereabouts, then, and about 1796, John and his family headed for America, and eventually settled in Ohio. The Brownes' American adventures are far better documented, as John was one of the delegates present at the 1803 Convention in Chillicothe when Ohio became a state. I'm currently trying to find details on the daughter Esther. So far I have discovered that her husband was Dr. Charles R. French, and she was born in England in 1795 according to the U.S. 1860 Census. If that is so, she must have been baptised in Bristol, but there is no trace of it so far.

That apprentice record does sound rather puzzling.

Earlier this morning I found a record online giving a precis of the Will of John's son William (b. 1778/9). (He had remained in Bath after his parents left for America, but eventually joined his family there and died in Cincinnati, Hamilton County in 1860.) One of the beneficiaries listed in his will was a Mary Ann Wall...

Cidermaker, I've found a marriage for a John Wall and a HESTER (Esther) Collier, 2 January 1772, Dursley, Gloucester, and the baptism for a Thomas Wall, son of John and Hester, so the couple who married in St. Giles may not be the right one . It's so frustrating not having an occupation to help determine whether we have the right couple!

[DRH123]

It gets more complicated

There's a 1793 Bristol directory entry which has

Wall & Daniel, tea dealers and chinamen, Wine Street
John Wall, auctioneer, ditto.

Other directory entries, earlier and later, have John Wall in tea, china and financial services. He also subscribed to a book on double-entry book-keeping!

Later, John Browne Wall appears in several censuses as either an auctioneer or auctioneer and undertaker.

I'm guessing John Wall was a bit of a wheeler-dealer. Sometimes going into partnership with others but those didn't last long. His son carried on the auctioneering side.

It may be coincidence but there seems to have been a Dr John Wall who was a prominent physician but also involved in the development of Worcester Porcelain. At one point he also took over a porcelain factory in Bristol. I wonder if there's any connection to your John Wall?

David

[Geordie daughter]

Now you see why this lot are driving me crazy!
John [Browne] Wall the auctioneer, is, as far as I can make out, the son of John Browne Wall, born 1796. J.B. junior (marr. Margaret Thomas, 1815) appears in the 1841 census at Pritchard Street, Bristol, and was definitely a wheeler-dealer from the ads I've come across, but then most of the Bristol merchants seemed to be, from the research I've done on the Brownes and their relations. Every single one of them had fingers in many, many pies!

I also kept bumping into Dr John Wall when googling the above lot, and wondered the same thing.

I found some more accurate info on Esther Browne and her husband. He was a Dr CORNELIUS (not Charles) Rappleye French, and they lived in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. According to an online tree, Esther was born in Bristol in 1794 and moved to America with her parents at the age of 2 in 1796. I've found precise birth dates for some of the older sisters but not for Esther, sadly.

[Geordie daughter]

"EX-PARTE WALL, IN THE MATTER OF CAVENAGH, BROWNE, AND BROWNE, BANKRUPTS. - In the Vice-Chancellor's Court, Monday, a petition was presented from Miss Mary Ann Wall, of Lambridge, near Bath, for liberty to prove a debt of 427l 11s., upon the separate estate of Mr Wm. Browne, one of the bankrupts. The claim arose upon a voluntary bond entered into by the bankrupt, about two years before the commission issued, whereby he agreed to allow the petitioner 30l per annum for life. It was stated that the petitioner was a cousin of Mr Wm. Browne, and had been several years in his service before this bond was given; that during such service it became convenient to the bankrupt that she should be removed from his residence, and this bond was entered into as a quietus, but since the bankruptcy she had returned to him. The petition was dismissed, and the petitioner was ordered to pay the costs. - [We have since heard that instead of the case being dismissed with costs, the petition remains, as it is to be heard on the 9th of March."  (Cheltenham Journal and Gloucestershire Fashionable Weekly Gazette, 2 March 1829)

Subsequent articles in other papers glossed over the details, in one instance saying simply that Henry Browne (The other partner in the bank and William's relative) was the petitioner's trustee, and gave the bare bones of what the petition was about. Do I detect the sniff of a scandal here?

[Geordie daughter]

Ciderdrinker, the marriage of John Wall and Esther BROWNE may be the right one after all, if John Wall's daughter Mary Ann, born 1785, is the cousin named in the above petition; it would certainly confirm that William's father John was Esther's brother. Dare I hope you've cracked it? If I can find proof, I'll be doing a little dance around the room!