Elizabeth Mooney and family (missing records)

[ThatAndyGuy93]

Hi,

My 2nd Great Grandmother Elizabeth Mooney was born in Dundee in 1873 to John Mooney & Mary Scott.

So far, I have been unable to locate a Birth or Baptism record for Elizabeth, nor can I find a Marriage Record for John and Mary.

I have also searched for a Birth and Baptism record for "Elizabeth Scott" in the case her parents were not married at the time of her birth, but I simply cannot find anything.

I have searched ScotlandsPeople, FindMyPast, Ancestry, FamilySearch and also RootsIreland, in case her parents moved to Scotland at some point from Ireland, but have been unsuccessful in finding any records regarding this family.

Last week, I found an 1881 Census in Glasgow from Smyllum Orphanage where a "Lizzie Mooney" was listed as a scholar and who's age matches up nicely with my Elizabeth Mooney. It also listed her birthplace as Dundee so I am 99% sure this is the correct person. The Smyllum Orphanage 1881 Census also lists a John Mooney from Dundee as a scholar there who is 3 years older than Elizabeth, so I am going on the basis that they could be siblings.

I also found Marriage and Death certificates for her sibling John Mooney, but neither of these records list anyone as his parents and the section is left blank. This leads me to believe that Elizabeth somehow discovered her parent's names somewhere between 1895 and 1897, the latter of which being the year she was married. Both of Elizabeth's Marriage and Death records list her parent's names clearly. I am also unable to find her sibling John's birth record.

I also know from Elizabeth's Marriage record in 1897 that her parents were both deceased by the time of her marriage.

Her Father, John Mooney, is listed as having the occupation of "Gardener" on Elizabeth's records, and I recently found an 1891 Census from Cambuslang in Lanark of a John Mooney who is a Gardener. I have no idea if this is Elizabeth's Father or not, but it's all I have to go on. The 1891 Cambuslang Census entry says that John was either 41, 47 or 49 at the time the Census was taken. It's rather difficult to read as his age has been partially crossed out.

As for Mary Scott, I have absolutely no information about her apart from her name. After searching ScotlandsPeople, I did find that a particular "Margaret Scott" in Dundee had a handful of illegitimate children whose surnames were all listed as "Scott" on their birth records. I know these children shared the same mother due to their birth location, date range of their births, and their Mother's listed occupation (Factory Worker). I'm not sure whether "Mary" and "Margaret" are interchangeable, but ultimately I assume not. I may just be clutching at straws.

If you have read this far then I thank you. I would appreciate any pointers or information anyone could provide regarding these people. It's rather frustrating hitting a brick wall after only going back a few generations.

Kind regards,

Andy 

[scotmum]

Firstly, do be aware that children who ended up in Smyllum in that timescale, were not necessarily orphans. Children from the Dundee area quite often appear in lists recorded in local newspaers following Relief Committee visits and/or meetings, as their placement at Smyllum was funded locally and inspections were carried out by or on behalf of the committee.

A 13 yr old John Mooney, for example, appears on such a list in 1882.

The order of nuns who ran Smyllum did (do?) have an archivist, but records are sparse or no longer existing from that timescale. You can enquire further using the email address at https://www.formerchildrenshomes.org.uk/st_vincent_de_paul.html . Smyllum opened in 1864.

As for parents names on marriage records, there was no check made on the accuracy of same, so any combination of names/occupation/life status could be given. If death was later registered by a family member with access to the marriage certificate information, then they could simply lift the information from same. Again, no checks would have been made.

There was an Elisabeth Mooney aged 38 months in the poorhouse at Dundee in 1875. You can request details via the email address at http://fdca.org.uk/Dundee_Poor_Register.html . Firstly go to the data page for M, scroll through to Mooney then note the reference number needed to locate the info. Whether linked or otherwise, but likely, a Margaret Mooney aged 28 and a Mary aged 4 months, entered on same day.


Do bear in mind that your Elizabeth may not have been either the one in the poorhouse, or the one in Smyllum.

Was there any family knowledge of your Elizabeth having possibly been an orphan that has made you consider the child in Smyllum at 1881? Do the 1901 and 1911 census record your Elizabeth as born Dundee? If at Bellside Terrace, 6 Glebe Street in 1901, then I can see it records her as Eliza, with a birthplace of Dundee and year 1875.

If you haven't already considered it, DNA can prove helpful in a situation such as this.

Also, have you considered and checked the content of, this birth record:

MOONEY
ELIZABETH
F
1872
282 / 2 / 35
ST MARY

as years on later records can often be incorrect.

[wivenhoe]

What is your source or this information?

"My 2nd Great Grandmother Elizabeth Mooney was born in Dundee in 1873 to John Mooney & Mary Scott."




Can you please list all the information on this certificate, 1897.

"I also know from Elizabeth's Marriage record in 1897 that her parents were both deceased by the time of her marriage."

[ThatAndyGuy93]

Firstly, do be aware that children who ended up in Smyllum in that timescale, were not necessarily orphans. Children from the Dundee area quite often appear in lists recorded in local newspaers following Relief Committee visits and/or meetings, as their placement at Smyllum was funded locally and inspections were carried out by or on behalf of the committee.

A 13 yr old John Mooney, for example, appears on such a list in 1882.

The order of nuns who ran Smyllum did (do?) have an archivist, but records are sparse or no longer existing from that timescale. You can enquire further using the email address at https://www.formerchildrenshomes.org.uk/st_vincent_de_paul.html . Smyllum opened in 1864.

As for parents names on marriage records, there was no check made on the accuracy of same, so any combination of names/occupation/life status could be given. If death was later registered by a family member with access to the marriage certificate information, then they could simply lift the information from same. Again, no checks would have been made.

There was an Elisabeth Mooney aged 38 months in the poorhouse at Dundee in 1875. You can request details via the email address at http://fdca.org.uk/Dundee_Poor_Register.html . Firstly go to the data page for M, scroll through to Mooney then note the reference number needed to locate the info. Whether linked or otherwise, but likely, a Margaret Mooney aged 28 and a Mary aged 4 months, entered on same day.


Do bear in mind that your Elizabeth may not have been either the one in the poorhouse, or the one in Smyllum.

Was there any family knowledge of your Elizabeth having possibly been an orphan that has made you consider the child in Smyllum at 1881? Do the 1901 and 1911 census record your Elizabeth as born Dundee? If at Bellside Terrace, 6 Glebe Street in 1901, then I can see it records her as Eliza, with a birthplace of Dundee and year 1875.

If you haven't already considered it, DNA can prove helpful in a situation such as this.

Also, have you considered and checked the content of, this birth record:

MOONEY
ELIZABETH
F
1872
282 / 2 / 35
ST MARY

as years on later records can often be incorrect.

Thank you very much! I will look into all of the information and resources you have suggested 

[MonicaL]

Also, have you considered and checked the content of, this birth record:

MOONEY
ELIZABETH
F
1872
282 / 2 / 35
ST MARY

From general indexes, this also looks to be a likely daughter born to mother Margaret Scott, born on 4 Jan 1872.

Monica

[scotmum]

From general indexes, this also looks to be a likely daughter born to mother Margaret Scott, born on 4 Jan 1872.

Monica

Think you meant to say Margaret Mooney, not Margaret Scott.

[MonicaL]

I did mean Mooney! Oops...

Monica 

[ThatAndyGuy93]

Thanks for all of your replies