Author Topic: Changed regiment  (Read 898 times)

Offline SapereAude

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 58
  • Tommy and Fanny Hammond and son Fred (my ggf)
    • View Profile
Changed regiment
« on: Tuesday 22 August 23 10:15 BST (UK) »
Hello,

I found some of my 2x ggf, Thomas Hammond's, WW1 records on which there was his regimental number. When I searched and found more online about him, I saw he changed regiment at some point going from the King's Shropshire Light Infantry (6th) to the South Lancashire Regiment (Prince of Wales Volunteers) (1/5th). On medal rolls, other men changed as he did, so it can't be that uncommon. I have his regimental numbers for both regiments. Does anyone know if I can somehow find the date of the change so I can trace where he served, etc?

Thank you in advance,
SapereAude
Davenport, Fear, Heywood, Lees, Bramwood, Fullalove (Lancashire) ; Dawson, Carr, Park, Mattinson, Peel, Threlkeld (Cumberland) ; Hammond, Peacock, Pedley, Alderson (Yorkshire) ; Notman, Irving, Bell (Dumfriesshire, Scotland) ; Curley/Corless, Roche (Ireland, Galway?)

Please contact me if you know anything about the Fear family of Manchester and Oldham's fish and poultry business  :)

Offline ALAMO2008

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,557
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Changed regiment
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 22 August 23 10:29 BST (UK) »
After 1917
CHAPMAN ROBINSON McKAY O'MALLEY

Offline Jebber

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,389
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Changed regiment
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 22 August 23 10:36 BST (UK) »
It was quite common to be posted to another Regiment.  During the war the many casualties depleted some Regiment, so men were transferred to build up the numbers where they were required.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

Offline Andy J2022

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,476
    • View Profile
Re: Changed regiment
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 22 August 23 11:20 BST (UK) »
Quote
If a man left his unit after wound, sickness or injury, there was no guarantee that he would be posted back to his original unit or regiment. This became increasingly the case as the war went on. So if he had joined his local unit, he may be with a totally different one by war’s end." - Chris Baker, the Long, Long Trail website
I assume that you haven't been able to locate his service records, so all you have to go on is his medal index cards or the medal rolls. Does the MIC say when he went overseas to France? For example the 6th (Service) Battalion KSLI landed at Boulogne-Sur-Mer as part of the 60th Brigade in the 20th (Light) Division in July 1915 for service on the Western Front, whereas the 1/5th Battalion South Lancs landed at Le Havre as part of the 12th Brigade in the 4th Division in February 1915.

The second way you may be able to narrow down the date of his transfer is to take the number he was given on joining the South Lancs, then using either Ancestry or FindMyPast (FindMyPast Is better for this) put his number and South Lancashire Regiment in the search terms, but omit all other details. Before you search replace the last digit of his number with an asterisk. Do a search. If you get any results, check each one to see if the soldier's documents have survived and if so note when he enlisted or was transferred to the South Lancs. Depending if his number was before or after that of the soldier you are interested in, this gives you a clue to your man's transfer date as numbers were issued in strict chronological order. Frankly I would be amazed if you got a result first time as you are looking at 10 individuals, so you will probably need to repeat the exercise using asterisks in place of the last two digits, and so on until you get something you can work with. The ideal is to get one soldier with a number several higher and another with a number several lower than your man so you have a bracket of dates. 

Just to confuse matters, in 1917 members to the Territorial Force were all given new numbers. If your man's second number is six digits long and starts with 2, that number will have been allocated to him as a result of this reorganisation, and not necessarily be related to the date when he transferred to the South Lancs. If this appears to be the case with your man, and you can locate his name on the Medal Rolls (on Ancestry) he will have a double line entry showing his former number in that battalion and his new number, along with the date of the changeover. (see this article on the Long, Long Trail website: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/)

I hope this helps rather than confuses!

More information of both Battalions KSLI here and South Lancs here


Offline Andy J2022

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,476
    • View Profile
Re: Changed regiment
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 22 August 23 11:25 BST (UK) »
After 1917
Alamo, I don't follow your reasoning.

Offline Andy J2022

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,476
    • View Profile
Re: Changed regiment
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 22 August 23 12:02 BST (UK) »
Following my own method, I found a Pte James Kirby who enlisted in the South Lancs on 11 Dec 1915 and was given the number 34977, that is 75 later Thomas Hammond's. If this sample of one is accurate, then it looks like Thomas went to France in July1915 with the KSLI and for some reason was transferred to the South Lancs later that year. I will need to look into what the KSLI were up to during 1915 to see if there's an obvious reason why their soldiers might have been used to reinforce the South Lancs.

As you noted, SapereAude, there are quite a lot of men who were transferred from the KSLI to the South Lancs, many of them with numbers close to Thomas Hammond's suggesting a draft of men at a particular time. Unfortunately I have only found MICs for them and they are near identical to the information on Thomas's (except for their names and numbers of course).

Offline SapereAude

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 58
  • Tommy and Fanny Hammond and son Fred (my ggf)
    • View Profile
Re: Changed regiment
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 22 August 23 12:24 BST (UK) »
Unfortunately no dates or anything about him going to France.....

If your man's second number is six digits long and starts with 2, that number will have been allocated to him as a result of this reorganisation, and not necessarily be related to the date when he transferred to the South Lancs.
No, it doesn't...

I'll have a go at looking on Ancestry and FindMyPast as you said
Thank you for your time and research  :)
Davenport, Fear, Heywood, Lees, Bramwood, Fullalove (Lancashire) ; Dawson, Carr, Park, Mattinson, Peel, Threlkeld (Cumberland) ; Hammond, Peacock, Pedley, Alderson (Yorkshire) ; Notman, Irving, Bell (Dumfriesshire, Scotland) ; Curley/Corless, Roche (Ireland, Galway?)

Please contact me if you know anything about the Fear family of Manchester and Oldham's fish and poultry business  :)

Offline SapereAude

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 58
  • Tommy and Fanny Hammond and son Fred (my ggf)
    • View Profile
Re: Changed regiment
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 22 August 23 12:25 BST (UK) »
If this sample of one is accurate, then it looks like Thomas went to France in July1915 with the KSLI and for some reason was transferred to the South Lancs later that year. I will need to look into what the KSLI were up to during 1915 to see if there's an obvious reason why their soldiers might have been used to reinforce the South Lancs.
Fantastic thank you so much
Davenport, Fear, Heywood, Lees, Bramwood, Fullalove (Lancashire) ; Dawson, Carr, Park, Mattinson, Peel, Threlkeld (Cumberland) ; Hammond, Peacock, Pedley, Alderson (Yorkshire) ; Notman, Irving, Bell (Dumfriesshire, Scotland) ; Curley/Corless, Roche (Ireland, Galway?)

Please contact me if you know anything about the Fear family of Manchester and Oldham's fish and poultry business  :)

Offline ALAMO2008

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,557
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Changed regiment
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 22 August 23 12:28 BST (UK) »
CHAPMAN ROBINSON McKAY O'MALLEY