Looking for Irish documents - Stuart, Hamilton, Fowley, early 1800s

[Lisa in California]

Hello. 

I’m looking for suggestions, please. I’m trying to find any Irish documents about my Stuart/Stewart, Hamilton and Fowley families.  (Stuart has been the most common spelling.  When infants given middles names, Stuart has always been the spelling.)  The following is a lot of information about their lives in Canada, but I’m hoping the details might help find them in Ireland, prior to their departure(s).

John Stuart (born c1790, Ireland) married Jane Hamilton (born c1791, Ireland) c1815, possibly in Sligo, Ireland.

John, Jane and possibly seven of their children and their wives, individually or as a group, arrived in Canada around the early 1840s.  They may have lived for a short time in New Brunswick (Canada) before settling in Etobicoke, Lambton Mills, Brampton, Vaughan, Toronto, etc. (all neighbouring towns in Ontario, Canada).
  I am still gathering information about their lives (including exact counties of birth), but I believe all of the following were their children:
    James, c1816, Sligo.     John, c1817, Leitrim?      Margaret, c1818.     Hamilton, c1821.
    Mary Jane, c1824.      Erskine, c1825.     Nathaniel, c1830.

The Stuart men were coopers; a couple of men eventually became farmers.  According to Canadian census records, they were Wesleyan Methodist and Church of England.

I am still looking, but I have not yet found any other Stuarts, Hamiltons or Fowleys (brothers to the elder John, cousins, etc.) who may have also settled in Canada.  I was hoping if I found others, their documents might state where in Ireland my ancestors once lived.

James’ wife was Sarah Fowley.  Her brother, James Fowley, was also a cooper.  James also settled in the same towns as the Stuarts.

James, John, and Hamilton were names that were handed down.

No Canadian records (death, cemetery, birth or marriage records, newspaper articles, etc.) have been found indicating exactly where any of the individuals were born. A few documents have mentioned Manorhamilton, Co. Leitrim but I don’t have proof of their accuracy. I am hoping that someone might have suggestions about where I might be able to look for them before they permanently left Ireland. Thank you for reading my long post.  Lisa

Note:  Over the years, I’ve posted numerous topics about their time in Canada  which has led to wonderful discoveries  but now I’m hoping to really search for them in Ireland, if possible, please.

[Elwyn Soutter]

Can't help you with specific records on your family but here's some information about Methodism in Ireland that you'll likely need to know when searching for records (many of which will not be on-line).

Methodism took a lot longer to become established in Ireland as a separate denomination than in England. In Ireland there was considerable resistance to separating from the Church of Ireland. In 1816 the main body of Irish Methodists (the Wesleyans) took the decision to allow baptisms in their preaching houses or chapels, but it was a practice which was only gradually introduced so that it wasn’t until the 1830s and 1840s that it became fairly standard. Because of continuing loyalty and other factors, many – including Primitive Wesleyans - continued to use the Church of Ireland for baptisms for years after this and it was 1871 before all Methodists routinely performed their own.

For Methodist marriages, the earliest that I am aware of, date from 1835 (Belfast Donegall Square, the first Methodist church in Ireland). However in the mid 1800s there were only a few Methodist Ministers (Methodism relied heavily on lay preachers). So that shortage led to the continuing practice of marrying in the Church of Ireland. In addition, in the early years, many Methodist Meeting Houses were not licensed for marriages so that too contributed to couples marrying in the Church of Ireland.

So to summarise, you are unlikely to find many Methodist baptisms before 1820. Few marriages before the 1840s and only a handful for many years after that. If there are no Methodist records in the location you are researching, I would search Church of Ireland records instead, as that’s the most likely place to find the relevant event.

Not many Methodist Meeting Houses have graveyards and so they may be buried in public or Church of Ireland graveyards (which are open to all denominations).

Possibly worth mentioning that Church of Ireland and Church of England are the same thing.

[Lisa in California]

Elwyn, thank you very much for explaining everything!  All of my ancestors were settled in Ontario, Canada by 1870 and I’ve not spent much time researching religion, actually, anywhere, so I was very interested in your post.

…For Methodist marriages, the earliest that I am aware of, date from 1835 (Belfast Donegall Square, the first Methodist church in Ireland). However in the mid 1800s there were only a few Methodist Ministers (Methodism relied heavily on lay preachers). So that shortage led to the continuing practice of marrying in the Church of Ireland. In addition, in the early years, many Methodist Meeting Houses were not licensed for marriages so that too contributed to couples marrying in the Church of Ireland…

You may have provided an extremely important bit of information for my Ovens ancestor (whom we’ve been looking for since I was about 13 years old). A few years ago I came across my possible brickwall ancestor (in North America) but this man was a lay preacher, or something similar.  I mostly discounted him because of my ignorance about religion, but now I’m wondering if it could have been him.  I’ll have to check out the records again. 

Back to the Stuarts, etc…
I will try to find Church of Ireland records, and will try to search all graveyards.  I don’t believe I’ve ever searched burial places for these families.

I have to admit, I did not know Church of Ireland and Church of England are the same thing.    I’ve been left in the dark ages.  During my youth and my 20s, only the Anglican Church (in Canada) and the Catholic Church for a couple of our ancestors was mentioned in my family.  I almost fell on the floor when I found out my Ovens/Wakefield ancestors were Methodist.  I had never heard of my Stuart, etc. ancestors until I uncovered them a few years after I started researching so of course I didn’t know about their religious affiliation.

Thank you again, Elwyn!  I like learning things and when they’re helpful as well, it’s twice as enjoyable.

[Elwyn Soutter]

Lisa,

The Anglican faith is formally known in Ireland as “the United Church of England & Ireland” shortened, in most cases, to Church of Ireland. In our censues you may see COI, COE, Anglican, Episcopalian and so on. All mean the same thing.

Some Church of Ireland records are on-line on the usual subscription sites but many are not. Some Methodist records are also on-line but again many are not (often only held by the relevant Circuits, as they are called, though some are in PRONI – the public record office in Belfast. Edgehill Methodist College’s historical section in Belfast also has some.).

If you can identify a general area where you think your ancestors may have lived, I can probably point you to the likely records and where they are held.  They won’t all be on-line and you may need to employ a researcher to look them up.

Also quite a lot of early Church of Ireland records were lost in the 1922 fire in Dublin. But not all were. So it all depends.

[Lisa in California]

Thank you again for clarifying more details.  I know my aunt, who for years worked in a church office, would be dismayed about my lack of knowledge but I suppose it’s never too late to learn about our (religious) history.

All I know about my direct Stuart/Fowley ancestors is that, according to a Canadian death certificate, they were born in Sligo (town? county? it didn’t state), Ireland.

James’ sibling (possibly more than one) was supposedly born in Manorhamilton, Co. Leitrim.

I’ve started a new tree, concentrating on my Stuart side.  I will continue to work on that to see if I can confirm the Manorhamilton birth or find additional birthplaces.

Months ago, I was continuing a search in Canada for a Bernard? Fowley who possibly was related to Sarah Fowley.  I will resume that Canadian search as I believe he was born in Manorhamilton as well.

Since finding my Stuart/Fowley ancestors, I been very intrigued.  They were never mentioned by family. My father and aunt didn’t even know they had Irish ancestors. I know Scottish DNA includes more territory than just Scotland, but as mentioned in other posts, it amazes me that my brother has 38% Scottish DNA (I only have 32%) even though we don’t have any known Scottish ancestors and I think few ancestors who could be included under the Scottish DNA label.  I’m wondering if my Stuarts possibly lived in Ireland a short time.  Anyway, one step at a time.

Hopefully, I can find additional details in Canada to help with Irish births.  Thank you for your guidance and sharing your knowledge, Elwyn.

[Elwyn Soutter]

Lisa,

An excellent site is John Grenham’s. It shows you where all the parishes are, county by county. It also tells you what church records exist, and where they are accessible. Have a look at it, and if you have any questions, let me know.

https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/

I wouldn’t rely too heavily on DNA ethnicity tests.  They are about as reliable as a horoscope.  Ethnicity is a social concept and has no scientific basis.  Serious students of folk’s origins rely on more detailed evidence. The first thing you discover is that almost everyone in England, Wales, Ireland and Scotland share the same DNA. So saying someone is 30% Scots and 20% Welsh is probably nonsense. It’s 11 miles from Ireland to Scotland at the closest point. Would you seriously expect the people in those areas to have different DNA?  If you moved 11 miles in the USA would you expect different DNA results?

Human occupation in Ireland has a very short history. The first visitors arrived around 8000 BC. Likely “Scots” who popped over for a bit of salmon fishing around Mountsandel in Co Antrim. (Mountsandel fort is the oldest record of human habitation in Ireland and dates to 8000 BC). They reportedly came across from Kintyre 11 miles away in Scotland.

https://discovernorthernireland.com/things-to-do/mountsandel-fort-p675691

So Ireland was first inhabited 10,000 years ago (when the last ice age retreated). England however didn’t have an ice sheet and was also connected to Europe by land till sea levels rose. It was first settled 500,000 years ago.  Rising sea levels and glacial retreat seem to have created some significant population movements and that led to visits to Ireland and eventually settlement. But the settlers came from Britain. Most of the population in Ireland are descended from people whose ancestors lived in Britain. Not always popular information sometimes if you are too emotionally involved in your “origins” but it’s what seems to be the case. (In turn the people who settled in Britain seem to have 3 broad sources of ancestry. The earliest were pastoral folk from middle Europe. Then they were followed by 2 waves of agrarian folk from what is now broadly Turkey and separately from Ukraine).

Scotland’s name comes from the Irish Scotiae tribe from Co Antrim who invaded Scotland around 595AD and created the Kingdom of Dalriada which included much of western Scotland and County Antrim in Ireland. They took their language with them (Erse) and it eventually replaced the Welsh that had been spoken in Scotland until that time. So Scotland is named after an Irish tribe, and whose language was Irish. Are they all likely to have different DNA? Discuss, as they say.

 My source for most of this is lectures at Queens University Belfast.

[Lisa in California]

Sorry for the delay in replying.  We lost power due to a fairly significant thunderstorm.  While other storms have had more lightning, this one was at times extremely loud.

Thank you for recommending John Grenham’s site.  While I believe I’ve looked at it in the past for surnames, I didn’t explore the other features.

I wouldn’t rely too heavily on DNA ethnicity tests.  They are about as reliable as a horoscope.  Ethnicity is a social concept and has no scientific basis.  Serious students of folk’s origins rely on more detailed evidence. The first thing you discover is that almost everyone in England, Wales, Ireland and Scotland share the same DNA. So saying someone is 30% Scots and 20% Welsh is probably nonsense. It’s 11 miles from Ireland to Scotland at the closest point. Would you seriously expect the people in those areas to have different DNA?  If you moved 11 miles in the USA would you expect different DNA results?

I’ve actually looked at my DNA results with interest/amusement as the categories do generally match up with my research, but perhaps the results are just very similar to anyone who has ties to England and Ireland.  I do giggle when the updates come out - it’s always entertaining to read how I’ve suddenly become more Irish or Scottish.    My main reason for taking the DNA test was to possibly find matches to help confirm my research and to learn more about our ancestors.  I found an “oops” event, but after communicating with the match, it helped my match find her birth ancestor so I’m pleased that she finally has answers (for a long ago adoption).

Regarding the statement about 11 miles made me think about my Irish ancestors.  I’ve spent decades researching my English ancestors.  Very little time has been spent trying to find those who were born in Ireland. My English and Canadian ancestors generally lived in the same areas for generations; I just assumed those born in Ireland did as well.  But perhaps they moved around.  According to one researcher, one branch supposedly was from England and settled in Ireland.

I look forward to reading more about Mountsandel.  Thank you for mentioning it and providing the link.  (I briefly looked at the link and will read additional literature later today.)

Elwyn, thank you again for sharing your knowledge.  As well as learning about history that I’ve never discovered on my own, it’s made me think about my ancestors and their possible actions.

[aghadowey]

Human occupation in Ireland has a very short history. The first visitors arrived around 8000 BC. Likely “Scots” who popped over for a bit of salmon fishing around Mountsandel in Co Antrim. (Mountsandel fort is the oldest record of human habitation in Ireland and dates to 8000 BC). They reportedly came across from Kintyre 11 miles away in Scotland.

https://discovernorthernireland.com/things-to-do/mountsandel-fort-p675691

Mountsandel is in Coleraine, Co. Londonderry 

Until recently we had a very old Hamilton Bible with connections to Collooney, Co. Sligo and Sligo town but can't see any connections to the Hamilton's here.

[Lisa in California]

…Until recently we had a very old Hamilton Bible with connections to Collooney, Co. Sligo and Sligo town but can't see any connections to the Hamilton's here.

Thank you very much for looking, aghadowey.  Just out of curiosity, I will include Collooney in my Canadian searches.  I’ve tried other ideas which haven’t produced any leads, can’t hurt to try.

Unless family members were trying to hide something from me (highly unlikely), nothing was ever mentioned about the Stuarts which I find odd as family meant a great deal to my grandfather and he supposedly talked a lot about his father’s side (his mother was a Stuart), to the point that my mum wouldn’t necessarily listen anymore.    Unfortunately, I inherited the gabbiness trait from him.   

As I slowly find out more about the Stuarts, after 1851 of course (so far, nothing new for Hamilton and Fowley), they inch toward becoming my most beloved branch.

Added:  my grandfather’s sister was given the middle name of Stuart (poor thing).  One brother was named James Stuart and went through life called Stu.  At some point, Stuart was still important.