William Jones c.1828

[ciderdrinker]

Good Afternoon
A bit more on Williams earlier life
1828   William jones baptised 24 .3.1828 At Andrew Clifton s of George and Eliza Jones Berkley Place labourer
1830 brother George baptises 7.11.1830 Berkley Place Bristol father porter
1833 sister Eliza 10 .2.1833  ditto
1834 14.11.1834 brother James at St James porter
1838 2.9.1838 Edwin
1841 Stevens Court St Augustine Bristol
Daniel Hore 30 flyman N
Ann 30 y
Ann 12
George Jones 30 flyman y
Eliza 25 y (Eliza Matthews married  St Nicholas 21.11.1825 )
Belinda 12 y bapt 4.7.1826 St Andrews (married 25.12.1846 Clifton Fred Welsh)
William 11
George 8
James 6
Sarah 1  bapt st James 4.4.1841 flyowner

1846 Brother Frederick bapt 10.5.1846 buried 3 Feb 1850

1851 Huntingdon Court /Chappel Arch Bristol
George Jones 45 fly owner Bristol
Eliza 40
James 15 assistant to pawnbroker
Sarah 10 Scholar

and William 23 lodger 15  Thomas St Birmingham

George follows William to Birmingham after his wife's death
1861 New John St West
George Jones lodger widower 59 House agent Bristol

1871 6 Spon Lane West Bromwich
George Jones 64 box maker Bristol
Mary Jane 51 Birmingham wife

1881 336 Oldbury RoAD Harbourne   General Dealer  AGE 74 AND 60.
Marriage possibly 10 Feb 1866 to Mary Jane Smart.Smethwick Holy Trinity
George widower 59  packing box maker Smethwick George dec Solicitors clerk
Mary Jane Smart45 spinster James Smart schoolmasterdec
wit James Reynolds and Selina Smart by licence

I still can't see a first marriage to Jane for William.

Ciderdrinker

[ASmithy]

Hi again Cider.

Thank you for finding all that information. I have took time to try and figure it all out. I am still under the impression that I might be looking at two different families here for father George Jones and mother Eliza Jones.

I keep going back to the marriage record of William Jones who classed his father as a Box Maker. Yet for what we have found he is also a 'Fly Owner/Flyman/Fly Propietor' to 'Labourer' to 'Pointer? or Porter' to 'Post Master' to 'Houe Agent' to 'Box Maker' then finally onto 'General Dealer'.
I am slightly confused at the wide range of professions he had which then makes me question whether I am on the right track.

Sorry for the delay in responding once again.

Kindest Regards
ASmithy

[ASmithy]

I still feel at a loss with William Jones between the years of 1841 and 1871.
I have managed to piece together his children. This is what I am very confident about.

1841 English Census [Piece: 371, Book: 5, Folio: 17, Page number: 29
1871 English Census [Piece: 3160, Folio: 49, Page number: 9.] He is a Striker.
1881 English Census [Piece: 3032, Folio: 107, Page number: 27.] He is a ? Striker
1891 English Census [Piece   2259, Folio: 37.] His is a Striker Smith
Death Index [Death Date: Jun 1897, Inferred Death Place: Staffordshire, Volume: 6b, Page: 475]

It seems that he spent most of the time as a Striker. This makes me question the possible record for the occupation where he is a Bricklayers Labourer in the 1851 Census and the record for the occupation where it could be a Hammerson and this does not match to anything, especially with the suggestion of a wife called Jane.
I am very confident on the marriage records of 7 of his said 9 children
1893: George Jones - Ada Orford. Father is William Jones, a Striker. Witnesses are Job Parson and Elizabeth Parsons.
1893: James Jones - Rose Hannah Cooke. Father is William Jones, a Striker. Witnesses are Job Parsons and Alice Jones.
1894: Thomas Jones - Harriett Nellie Brown. Father is William Jones, a Striker. Witnesses are James Jones and Rose Hannah Jones.
1895: Frederick Jones - Annie Weldon. Father is William Jones, A Striker. Witnesses are Martha Elizabeth Jones and Frederick Weldon.
1901: John Jones - Emily Bloxwich. Father is William Jones (deceased), A Striker. Witnesses are James Jones and Roseanna Jones.
1902: Samuel Jones - Angus Reeves. Father is William Jones (deceased), A Striker. Witnesses are Pllly Mary Reeves and Astbury Jones.
1904: Belinda Alice Jones - Astbury Jones. [CANNOT SEE RECORD]

This leaves Elizabeth and William who are apparently his children in the 1871 and 1881 Census to find. I do not believe these to be twins.

[ciderdrinker]

Hello Smithy
Lets start with William Jones Hammerson or Hammer man
This is another name for Striker.
Often a Chainmaker would work with another less able man in order to produce goods faster.
The Chain maker or Blacksmith would do all the skilled work but to go faster and make more money he would get another man to the heavy physical work.
So he would warm the iron in the furnace ,take to The Anvil and hold in the tongs ,moving it as necessary while a man with a Hammer or striker would hit the metal to bend it into the right shape or flatten it into a rod or whatever.
The skilled man needed to complete an apprenticeship ,maybe 7 years .The Hammer man /striker just needed to hit where he was told.

I agree with the censuses you have.
The looking at his father George
1841 he seems to be working for his landlord as a Flyman
1851 he is business for himself .Still a Flyman but doing better.
Or is he? Let's consider what a Flyman was.
He took goods and people by coach and horses  as fast as possible to other areas.
Before the advent of steam trains ,he was the elite transport for those without their own coach.Everyone would have used one and there would be several companies in each town.Perhaps he is now able to afford his own company because others have lost money and sold cheap.The train network is expanded .Flyman are losing their livelihood.If it's speed tha passengers want ,over long distances then the train is quicker and more convenient .His is a dying trade.He may have to concentrate  on local journeys ,carrying goods from the station into the local area .Being essential a porter ,getting business where he can.

1850s His wife dies .He sons William and James are both in Birmingham and Belinda is in Harbourne. She's at 119 Oldbury Road in 1881 ,just in the same street.
George junior married 27 Dec 1852 St Jacob and St Phillip to Jane Chugg/ Jugg Redmore age 25.George flyman. (George and Jane may be in Bilston 1861)
They say come to George and say  join us ,what more natural?
Obviously he hasn't got the contacts in Birmingham.It's more urban ,they don't need Flyman ,carters ,porters.He's an educated man and he takes what job he can ,just for now while he thinks what to do next.House Agent makes sense ,not too arduous for the older man,still a bit of travel ,get to know the local area and see what going on.
It doesn't work out so he gets a job .I don't know what skills there are in making packing boxes but in his day moving them about he must have seen hundreds.
He works steadily and goes into business for himself .Let's be honest General Dealer could be anything.He's selling something for a shop.Many workers would save up and set themselves up in their retirement from another job.Remember there is no pension.
Times changed and George had to change with them.He doesn't start as a weaver for instance,and suddenly become a chemist.His jobs ,except for the shop all seem to be about moving goods and people.Even the House agent is about moving a family from one place to another.The buyer and seller would move need to move their things ,wouldn't they?
I haven't see the Post Master one ,pointer is probably porter and if he really couldn't get a job ,in tough times a labourer might be the last resort .Perhaps he was taking things on and off the 'Fly'.

I've not looked at William's children but I'll get back to you if I see anything.

Ciderdrinker

[ASmithy]

Wow, thank you for your detailed response!!

What you mention definitely makes sense now especially with the Hammerman being the same as a Striker for William and how George was in a trade that was not needed anymore, and maybe came to Birmingham for a better opportunity in work.

So with William more than likely being in the 1861 Census, where there is a Hellen (aged 9, from Islington, London), William (aged 2, from Birmingham) and Jane (aged 2, from Birmingham). That William (junior) is actually the child between William and Jane and not that of Elizabeth then? 

I have tried to follow this family, but they all seemed to disappear, I thought Hellen/Ellen would be easier to find, but I have had no luck in following any of them.

Do you think that the 1851 Census record for William (senior) being a Bricklayers Labourer is also correct? I have tried to see out possibilities to verify or disprove it, and I came across a William H Jones for the 1871 Census and another for 1881 Census for a Wlliam Jones which have a the occupation of a Bricklayers Laborer. They latter stated he was from Birmingham though.

Come to George, I can only but laugh at how I was thinking and how wide I was going with thinking about a 'Box Maker' being someone who makes boxes (chests) and not packing boxes and how from a flyman is a sort of Taxi in this day and age, to what I know of what a Porter is today (someone in a hotel). I think I might need to rethink and remind myself to look deeper at occupations.

Thank you for educating me in this.

[ciderdrinker]

Hello
Yes I do think William junior was the child of William and Jane rather than Elizabeth's.
I tried everyway I can think of to get the twins William and Jane's birth reg and so their mother's maiden name but really nothing .Even using blank  surname and any twins in Aston or Birmingham district got me no where.
As you say they all seem to disappear.
Not sure of William on the 1851 as a bricklayers labourer.After all Jones is a very common name.

I think William was with Jane in 1861 and definitely had the twins with her ,not sure about Helen.
If Jane had been married ,had Helen and then started a relationship with William ,they couldn't get married which would explain the lack of a first marriage record and him stating he was a bachelor when he married Elizabeth Gilkes.

Elizabeth Jones may be her daughter and necessarily William's ,from before they got together.
There does seem to be quite a lot of secrets and mysteries.

Ciderdrinker

[ASmithy]

Whilst only some part of the mystery is answered and I will arrive back to it at some point, I feel I might have better look at trying to trace what happened to the Williams brothers and sisters, just like you have already done for Belinda, Ciderdrinker.
I want to say thank you for your work so far.
Baptism Records;
Upon looking at his siblings, I started out by ensuring that all those who were in the 1841 and 1851 English Census, with their parents George and Eliza, had their baptism records. [Piece: 371, Book: 5, Folio: 17, Page number: 29] [Piece: 1951, Folio: 165, Page number: 45]

I managed to find the following baptism records;

• Belinda Jones - 20 Apr 1828 - Berkeley Place. Baptised at St Andrew's Church in Clifton. Father is a Labourer.
• William Jones - 20 April 1828 - Berkeley Place. Baptised at St Andrew's Church in Clifton. Father is a Labourer.
• George Jones - 7 Nov 1830 - Berkeley Place. Baptised at St Andrew's Church in Clifton. Father is a Porter.
• James Jones - 16 Nov 1834 - St James. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Porter.
• Sarah Jones - 4 Apr 1841 - St Augustine. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Fly Owner.

Upon finding these, I managed to find a number of other 'interesting' baptism records in both of those churches and was wondering whether or not some of them could also be William's brothers and sisters? They all have George and Eliza as a mother and father.

The 'interesting' baptism records I found were;

• Eliza Jones - 10 Feb 1833 - Berkeley Place. Baptised at St Andrew's Church in Clifton. Father is a Porter.
• Edwin Jones - 2 Sep 1838 - St Paul. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Post Master.
• Frederic Jones - 15 May 1846 - St Augustine. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Fly Proprietor.
• Eliza Jones - 3 Dec 1847 - Gilliams Court. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Labourer.
• John Jones - 12 July 1848 - St Augustine. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Coachman.
• Emma Jones (PRIVATE) - 18 Feb 1847 - Providence Court. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Labourer.
• Emma Jones - 12 Aug 1849 - Christmas Street. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Labourer.
• William Jones - 12 Aug 1849 - Christmas Street. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Labourer.

**Note** Emma Jones has the word Private in brackets on her record next to her name. Not sure what that would mean?
Marriage Records;
I have found a couple of marriage records that fit (not 100% sure they are correct such as William) for some children in the 1841/1851 English Census mentioned above, but struggling to find others. The ones I have been able to find are;

• Belinda Jones - Frederick Welch. 25 Dec 1846 at St Andrew's Church in Clifton. Her father is George Jones, a proprietor of Flys. Witnesses are Henry Craddick and Mary Ann Parsons.
• George Jones - Jane Chugg Redmore. 27 Dec 1852 at St Philip and St Jacob Church in Bristol. His father is George Jones, a Flymaster. Witnesses are Elizabeth Rowland and Henry Naish[?]
• Willaim Jones - Eliza Floyd. 13 Dec 1852 at St Philip and St Jacob Church in Bristol. His father is George Jones, a Flyman. Witnesses are Eliza David[?] and Henry Naish[?]
• Emma Jones - Henry Sidmonds. 16 June 1864 at St Philip and St Jacob Church in Bristol. Her father is George Jones, a Fly Proprietor. Witnesses are William Mapowder[?] and Ann Mapowder[?]

**NOTE** I looks like Belinda and Frederick had a child together who sadly did not survive long. A Baptism record for a Belinda Welsh St John's Church in Bedminster can be found on 5 March 1848. It looks like she died in the year 1850.

**NOTE** I have unsuccessfully found George Jones and Jane Chugg in any Census record together. She died at the age of 81 in Bristol in the year 1901. Is it a stretch to suggest that maybe William 'ran off' with the mysterious Jane that we have been on the hunt for earlier and that is why I am unable to find any census record of George and Jane?

**NOTE** William's marriage here would indicate that he was born around 1827.. the same timeframe that my William was born, however, he married Eliza Gilkes in 1866. This record also mentions that he is a widower at the age of 25. Could William [Senior] had [William Junior] with Elizabeth Floyd and that is why his baptism record in the St George area of Birmingham mentions that they live on St George's Street, Birmingham and why it mentions that his mother is named Elizabeth.. Maybe Elizabeth died, and why the name Jane now crops up as living in in that household. That however, does not explain who [twin']Jane' is? That or.... William was having an affair with Elizabeth Floyd and Jane [unkown], and got two people pregnant at the same time, which then was discovered where Elizabeth Floyd left, leaving William and Jane to play happy family.

[ciderdrinker]

Good Morning
Lets start with the family of George Jones and Eliza Matthews

Belinda Jones - 20 April 1828 - Berkeley Place. Baptised at St Andrew's Church in Clifton. Father is a Labourer. Born 11th July 1826 Dies June 1882 Kings Norton
1851 Spon Lane West Bromwich -1861 Castle st North Harbourne ,1871and 1881  Oldbury Road North Harbourne
William Jones - 20 April 1828 - Berkeley Place. Baptised at St Andrew's Church in Clifton. Father is a Labourer. born 24 March 1828
George Jones - 7 Nov 1830 - Berkeley Place. Baptised at St Andrew's Church in Clifton. Father is a Porter.
Eliza Jones 10 Feb 1833 - Berkeley Place. Baptised at St Andrew's Church in Clifton. Father is a Porter.
James Jones - 16 Nov 1834 - St James. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Porter.
Edwin Jones - 2 Sep 1838 - St Paul. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Post Master. Mother's maiden name birth Reg Matthews Died Mar qtr 1840 Bristol
Sarah Jones - 4 Apr 1841 - St Augustine. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Fly Owner.
Martha Jones born June 1842 Clifton died Sep 1843 Bristol mother Matthews
Richard Jones Sep 1844 mother Matthews died Sep qtr 1844 Bristol
Frederick Jones - 15 May 1846 - St Augustine. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Fly Proprietor. Buried 3 Feb 1850 St Paul aged 3yrs 9months

John Jones Sep 1848  mother Matthews   12 July 1848 - St Augustine. Baptised at St James's Church in Bristol. Father is a Coachman.

Differences and new stuff in bold .

Eliza at Gillams Crt and William and Emma Christmas St are not yours as they appear on the census at those addresses with different families.
Strugling to find the pricate baptism for Emma 1848 and further details but she is not registered at birth with mother Matthews.


Turning to William Jones born c 1828 and married 1866 to Elizabeth Gilkes 1866.
Well done on spotting that marriage to Eliza Floyd.
The only birth registration I can see is Arthur George Jones Sep qtr 1871 Ludlow which just isn't right. None at all 1851-1861 in England or Wales.
She seems to be born in West bury on Trymm ,daughter of Joseph and Ann Floyd and is there on the 1841 and 1851 censuses.
And who did William marry before that?
Just can see an entry that fits 1851 census etc.

I'll keep looking

Ciderdrinker

[ASmithy]

Thank you for finding all that information and correcting me on other bits! A lot of information that I struggled to find! It is much appreciated!

I believe I have managed to find his first marriage and his missing 1851 Census!

William Jones - Matilda Dennis on 17 Oct 1846 at St John Church, Bedminster, Bristol. He is a Blacksmith. His father is George Jones, a Livery Stable Keeper[?]. Witnesses were Eliza Dennis and Bary[?] John Room.

I found an 1851 Census for William and Matilda. William is a 23-year-old from Clifton, Gloucestershire. I am unable to read his first occupation title, but I am sure the second word says 'Porter'. Matilda is a 20-year-old from Bedminster, Somerset[?] [Piece: 1951, Folio: 401, Page number: 28]

Upon looking at the GRO, I found the potential for 2 children;

• George Jones - 1848 - Bristol, Gloucestershire.
• William Frederick Jones - 1851 - Bristol, Gloucestershire.

He remarried in 1852, so Matilda must have died before then. I am unsure where the children between them are as of yet.

That is of course if the Marriage I have found is correct though?

Strugling to find the pricate baptism for Emma 1848 and further details but she is not registered at birth with mother Matthews.

Sorry, the baptism was 18 Feb 1847 at St James's, Bristol. Let me know if you find it.