John Livingston?, Muthill, Perthshire

[EBrand]

Hi everybody,

I am currently doing research into my Duncan side of the family, who are from Muthill, Perthshire.
In the 1851 Census they are residing in Muthill and living with them is a grandson, who I think is named John Livingston, aged 6. He is still living with them in 1861, aged 16. I have been unsuccessful in finding out what happened to him after this fact, and I am not too sure who his parents are.

1851 Household Transcript:
Andrew Duncan   78
Isabel Duncan   58
Andrew Duncan   26
Joseph Duncan   22
Alexander Duncan   18
John Leveingston   6

1861 Household Transcript:
Isabella Duncan   69
Andrew Duncan   36
Alexander Duncan   27
John Ferrington   16

I have attached both the 1851 and 1861 census so you can see for yourself.

Isabel Kay and Andrew Duncan had 6 children but I cannot find a marriage for the couple:
Andrew (1815-bef.1823)
Isabella (1818-1883) m. George Brand in 1840
Janet (1820-1908) m. Duncan Gow in 1846
Andrew (1823-1908) never married
Joseph (c.1828-1906) m. Ann Buchanan in 1852
Alexander (c.1833-1896) never married

I believe (but I do not have any connecting proof) that Andrew had a previous marriage with Ann Whyte in 1805 in Muthill, to which a daughter Agnes was born in 1811. I cannot find any other children for this marriage, and I cannot find what happened to Agnes following her birth. If Agnes is the daughter of Andrew Duncan (who later had a relationship with Isabel Kay) then she may be the mother of this John Livingston. However, I cannot find anything about either of them.

I appreciate any help, thank you!
EB

[Forfarian]

If John Livingston was born illegitimate in the parish of Muthill, there could be some information about his parentage in the minutes of Muthill Kirk Session. The Minutes and Discipline book from 1834 to 1869 is available to consult at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk.

If he was 6 in 1851 and 16 in 1861, he is more likely to have been born in 1844 than in 1845, so best to start looking in 1843.

[Neale1961]

I think I would be looking for a possible illegitimate birth for a child of Janet Duncan and John Livingston born abt 1819 and also in the weaving trade in Muthill. He married in Dec 1844 and Janet in 1846.

[EBrand]

Forfarian,

Thank you, I will have a look at these and update if I find something. What an awesome resource!

Neale1961,

That's a route I haven't looked down yet, but is definitely possible. I will have a look into this. Great advice, thank you!

[EBrand]

Wow, Forfarian and Neale1961, you were both correct!

John was found by the Kirk Sessions to be the illegitimate child of Janet Duncan and John Livingstone.
Now I just have to find out where John Jr went following the 1861 Census.

Thank you both for your help, it is much appreciated!

EB

[Neale1961]

Good to hear back from you, and to know that my initial thoughts were correct.
I’ll have a little look for him in later census and report back if I find anything.

Did you get a date of birth for him from the kirk sessions?

[EBrand]

Not exactly, when Janet appeared at the Kirk Session on 3 June 1844 she "declared herself pregnant". Interestingly, the woman he would marry on the 8 Dec 1844 (Margaret Ferguson) was also present and he "confessed his guilt with the said Margaret who was present". So, he may have already been betrothed to Margaret when this affair happened.
Apparently according to witnesses John and Janet were seen together "last Halloween" and "the evening after Halloween Ball" which would have been 31 Oct/1 Nov 1843.

If this is when John Jr was conceived she would have been about 7 months pregnant at her appearance at the Kirk Sessions. Meaning John Jr may have been born August/Sep 1844. But this is all based on 'if' John Jr was conceived at that time.

[Neale1961]

No obvious death for him in Scotland, so I looked for immigration abroad.

This one looks possible?

John Livingston born 14 Aug 1844 Muthill, Scotland (son of John Livingston)
Living in Lambton, Ontario, Canada from 1881 census until death
Working as a brick layer, stone cutter/ marble dealer

Married to Mary Jane Thrower in 1874 Ontario.

Grave
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/232361988/j-livingstone

Added more detail ---
1901 census gives date of birth as 14 Aug 1844. Immigration year 1873
1911 census gives date of birth as  Aug 1844. Birth place Muthill, Scotland

His death certificate gives date of birth as Aug 6 1845
Father – John Livingstone (Scotland) mother unknown
Informant was his daughter

[Forfarian]

Excellent! Glad you've been able to make some progress.

I wonder where he was in 1871?