Author Topic: WW1 - Grandfather John Cumming Smith surviving military records?  (Read 282 times)

Offline Calleva

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WW1 - Grandfather John Cumming Smith surviving military records?
« on: Tuesday 19 September 23 10:21 BST (UK) »
A new thread after I confused things by previously adding my query to another! Thanks to Jim 1 and Andy J2022 for their help who both said they’d respond to this one once up and running (Andy had already replied with fascinating information and said he would re-post.)

Hope I’ve successfully added a photo of my Grandfather who was in the 6th (Morayshire) Battalion of the Seaforth Highlanders and also the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders but in any event the photo is incidental to my query which is to see what records exist based on his entry in the Morayshire Roll of Honour.

https://digital.nls.uk/rolls-of-honour/archive/100233620?mode=gallery_grid


P. 411 Lce./Cpl  27445 John Cumming Smith

I do have a lot of information about his birth, marriage, death and other records so it’s only surviving military records which are of interest.

Thank you in anticipation!



Patton Antrim, Stockton on Tees
Smith Elgin, Skye of Curr, Speyside
Cumming Speyside
McQueen Speyside
Gentleman Hawick
McPhee Lanarkshire

Offline jim1

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Re: WW1 - Grandfather John Cumming Smith surviving military records?
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 19 September 23 12:13 BST (UK) »
First the bad news John's record hasn't survived so the info
is going to be more of a general nature but will at least
indicate his movements.
There is an anomaly the Memorial Roll states he was in the 6/Seaforths
but his Medal Roll doesn't state this it states he was in the 5/Seaforths.
I believe I know what's happened but first some background info re these
Btn's.
They were both Territorial Btn's & at the time of enlistment men of the TF
were given the option to serve overseas or home service only I believe
he opted for the latter.
Both the above Btn's were in the same Bde. (152) 51/Div. & went overseas
(France) in May 1915 but your man didn't go as he doesn't have the 15 Star.
This is what led me to believe he was "home service only."
When conscription was introduced in Jan. 1916 this option was rescinded
& John was posted to France but posted to the 5th. Btn. prior to this as
this is the Btn. that appears first on his Medal Roll.
His service no. being 2428.
Sometime before early 1917 he was posted to the 4/Seaforths (154 Bde.) 51/Div.
His service no. being 242387.
A bit more about the TF in early 1917 they were re-organised & given 6 digit numbers
as the 4th. is the only Btn. where he has one of these indicates he was posted there prior
to the new issue.
In July 1918 he was transferred to the 14/A & SH.
His no. being 27445.
The 14/A & SH were in France from mid 1916 but were reduced to a Cadre in April 1918
& used as a training unit for American servicemen.
Soon after they returned to the UK & absorbed another Btn. & sent back to France in July 1918
but were only 30% up to strength.
The Medal Roll shows a large number of men from the Seaforths (& other Regts.) being
transferred to the 14th.
Their war diary shows a draft of over 300 men in July 1918 & one would have to conclude
your man was one of them.
I'll leave you to absorb this but do come back with any questions you might have.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline Andy J2022

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Re: WW1 - Grandfather John Cumming Smith surviving military records?
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 19 September 23 14:02 BST (UK) »
As Calleva has mentioned, the following text was also posted on the other thread, and included here for completeness and to assist searching:

Regarding your questions. First of all you need to find out how to post the photograph you mention. I suspect it was too large to accepted by the forum software. Read this thread for some tips on how to re-size an image.
Now done.

I assume that you have all the details about him in the 1891 census, his marriage in 1913 and his death in 1940.

You then asked about any details of your grandfather's service, beyond what you know from the Morayshire Roll of Honour. Nothing shows up on FindMyPast using the bare details of his number, name and his two units. However one of the reasons for this is that around 65% of all service records from the First World War have not survived. That said 19,691 records for soldiers from the Seaforth Highlanders, and 46,926 for the A&SH did survive. 

The second is that middle names were frequently not recorded and just looking at the rest of that page on the Morayshire Roll of Honour there are nine other John Smiths recorded. Even just within the Seaforth Highlanders there are 39 entries or documents for 'John Smith', and 125 for the A&SH.

The next issue you need to be aware of is his service number.  Prior to 1917 each regiment issued its own numbers, and often duplicates of the same number might be found in both its Regular and Territorial Force battalions1. The number for JC Smith recorded in the Roll of Honour (27445) will refer to one of the two regiments he served in, quite possibly from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. Both Regiments restarted their numbering at 1 in 1908, and by September 1914, when JC Smith enlisted, none of the battalions in either Regiment had reached the figure of 27400. That said the numbers were not always issued sequentially, but even taking that into consideration I don't think 27445 was his number when he first joined the Seaforth Highlanders. From 1917 all members of the Territorial Force units (that is, those not in the regular 1st and 2nd battalions of both Regiments) were issued with new 6 figure numbers2, and so, because the Roll of Honour uses the five figure number, I think it's reasonable to assume that either he was discharged (possibly due to injuries) before the new numbering came in, or that he was serving in one of the Regular battalions of the A&SH at the end of the war, while keeping his old number. Of course it's possible that whoever compiled the Roll of Honour based the entry on some documentation which only recorded his pre-1917 number.

Perhaps someone with access to the medal rolls on Ancestry will do a look up to see if he shows up under that number on the A&SH rolls. Often the medal rolls show both old and new numbers for TF soldiers.I haven't been able to find a medal index card for him using 27445.


Footnotes.
1. There was a Pte Francis Smith 27445 in the West Yorkshire Regiment.
2. For example the 8th Battalion A&SH were issued a block of numbers 3000,001 to 325,000.

Offline jim1

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Re: WW1 - Grandfather John Cumming Smith surviving military records?
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 19 September 23 14:05 BST (UK) »
See my reply.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/


Offline Andy J2022

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Re: WW1 - Grandfather John Cumming Smith surviving military records?
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 19 September 23 14:32 BST (UK) »
Good catch Jim.

Offline Calleva

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Re: WW1 - Grandfather John Cumming Smith surviving military records?
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 19 September 23 19:38 BST (UK) »
I am amazed at Jim’s and Andy’s depth and breadth of knowledge and incredibly grateful to them for explaining my Grandfather’s service in WW1 so clearly by brilliant deduction based on the facts - thank you both very much.

I will indeed absorb all this fantastic information and share with other family members to make sure it’s recorded for the future.

Patton Antrim, Stockton on Tees
Smith Elgin, Skye of Curr, Speyside
Cumming Speyside
McQueen Speyside
Gentleman Hawick
McPhee Lanarkshire