Harolds cross couple.

[grizzly1]

Hi, Im struggling to find a marriage date for Patrick Martin to Sheila Dunne in the mid 1940s, the couple I believe were nearby neighbors, Patrick from 27 Harolds Cross Cottages, and Shelia from nearby No 1 Darley St.

Patrick was born on 4-3-1923 father's name John/Jack, (I believe at No 27 Harolds cross cottages but not 100%) his father worked for Guinness and may have been a cooper.

Patrick would later also be employed by Guinness as a 'processman'  and from their records he joined on 10-1-1945, they gave Sheila Martin as his wife (I dont know if this would be added on his record when first employed or later date ? hence my guess as to year of marriage, their eldest son born 1949 )

Sheila Dunne was born 1928 (no day/month) but the belief is at 1 Darley St.

I have checked the 1911 census for family surnames for both Harolds Cross Cottages and Darley st in hope that the family had lived there but drew a blank.

I also paid a visit to the GRO Research room today in hope of finding either or both Birth and Marriage cert but the offices were not open (2pm).

I would as always be very grateful for any info forwarded in order to continue.
Thanking you.

[shanreagh]

There are both names (Dunne & Martin) on the Census record but as we do not have the family names that you have I cannot tell which would be your family's names.  There are 13 entries for Martin at Harolds cross and 18 for Dunne.  For the 1901 census these may be young children and then had children 1923/28. 

You advise that Patrick Martin's father was John or Jack.  Do you know what his mother's name was?

I am wondering if the searches are being too specific as to location at this stage bearing mind the lack of info about the parents of Patrick or Sheila. 

Do you know if they had brothers or sisters or if the child born in 1949 had siblings or cousins?  Have you got information on those names?  Have you searched for the parents of the cousins or sought the birth certificates of siblings of the child born in 1949?  Sometimes in searching you need to search laterally instead of linearly. 

In 1923 a child called Sheila Kathleen Dunne was born and died aged 14 days.  It is possible that her parents may have named a subsequent child Sheila.  In this case the mother's name was Julia Dunne. They lived at 29 Thomas St Dublin and her father was a grocer's assistant. 

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1923/05054/4384695.pdf

This may
 be the marriage for the parents of Patrick based solely on the location mentioned of Harold's Cross
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1923/09175/5318280.pdf

The names were John Martin & Christina Morris.  He is a clerk  and son of a butcher,  James Martin and she is the daughter of Edward Morris who is a clerk. 

They were married at Dolphins Barn church
https://www.joyceproject.com/notes/040041dolphinsbarn.htm
https://libertiesdublin.ie/dolphins-barn/

Are any of these names familar?
 

[shanreagh]

Continuing with this tenuous searching.....

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/New_Kilmainham/Turvey_Avenue/61140/

This shows a 15 year old Christina Morris, a scholar living with her brothers  and sisters in Turvey Ave Dublin. The head of the house is Ellie Morris.  An Ellie Morris signed the marriage certifctae of the john martin/Christina Morris marriage I found.  These seem to link up but whether these are your people??

[grizzly1]

Hi Shanreagh, thank you for your reply.
I have scoured the locality on 1901-1911 census for any links through Christian names with both Surnames, but basically came up blank, I was informed by my friend (whom I'm carrying out this search for) that he believes that Patrick's father John/Jack was also employed by Guinness's as a 'cooper', so that may help in dismissing the marriage lead for Dolphins barn church?

One angle im looking at is the addresses of Darley St and Harold Cross Cottages, I think im correct in believing that they may have been Dublin artisan dwellings and of a decent standard for the era, and if I'm correct they would have been rented to workers in steady employment such as Guinness employees/Tradesmen who could afford the rent ?  that in itself would narrow down any census search on the Martin side?

[shanreagh]

Thanks.....I go back to the advice I gave earlier and that would be to ask your friend to note down the names of aunts, cousins and siblings then search on those.  Presumably they have the birth certificate of 1949 and any death certificates of their parents?  These would be a first step. 

What are the details on that birth certicate please as to parents' names, who registered it etc.  Where the birth took place. 

The trouble with looking at the census is that the people who later married are the children of the householders...ie it is starting on a search one generation back from the people who later married and had the child born in 1949  and if you do this there are bound to be problems. 

[grizzly1]

Have just ordered a copy of Patrick's Birth cert, and I can work from there, will also again pay a visit to GRO on its opening day in order to source the Marriage cert for the couple.
Thank you again for your input.

[shanreagh]

Have just ordered a copy of Patrick's Birth cert, and I can work from there, will also again pay a visit to GRO on its opening day in order to source the Marriage cert for the couple.
Thank you again for your input.

That is great and will give you a good start.  Come back and we'll keep going......having done all this looking on various databases I am keen to see which set of people he belongs to! 

[Abhanliath]

@Grizzly1 Are you sure they were married in Ireland? Sometimes people married abroad - as near as Holyhead, but also in Scotland or England.

[shanreagh]

yes i wondered that too and also wondered if in fact they married at all?

Grizzly if you can search in the Newspaper Archives you may find a death notice for either/both of them.....