Author Topic: Apparent Error in GRO Copy, Can GRO Check Original?  (Read 2807 times)

Offline Tickettyboo

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Re: Apparent Error in GRO Copy, Can GRO Check Original?
« Reply #18 on: Thursday 05 October 23 10:41 BST (UK) »
sorry I didn't reply to your second point
I don't have the emails to hand (its been about 8 years and that computer has been replaced twice in that time) they will be on one of the many backups, in a box, somewhere, but the post I made was when I received the mail and though I didn't quote it verbatim, its what was said.
I can't verify the accuracy of the info, can only report what was said
Boo

Offline eadaoin

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Re: Apparent Error in GRO Copy, Can GRO Check Original?
« Reply #19 on: Thursday 05 October 23 16:36 BST (UK) »
I have a GRO copy of a Mary Jane Brady/ Michael Walsh marriage in 1893.
It merely states that Mary Jane's father is dead.

I have also a copy of that marriage from the R.C. church in Fairview, dated February 2001.
It states that her parents were Jane and Michael Begg, Malahide (which I know to be true from other sources - she was a widow).

So in this case, the bride's mother's name and the address were a real bonus.

I had something similar with a marriage in Howth around the same time.
It's well-worth investigating the church anyway,  with a personal letter/email (I sometimes drop in 5euro - and a box of chocs for the parish secretary in Fairview!)
Begg - Dublin, Limerick, Cardiff
Brady - Dublin
Breslin - Wexford, Dublin
Byrne - Wicklow
O'Hara - Wexford, Kingstown
McLoghlin - Roscommon
Lawlor - Meath, Dublin
Lynam - Meath and Renovo, Pennsylvania
Everard - Meath
Fagan - Dublin
Meyler/Myler - Wicklow
Gray - Derry, Waterford
Kavanagh - Limerick

Offline Jon_ni

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Re: Apparent Error in GRO Copy, Can GRO Check Original?
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 07 October 23 07:59 BST (UK) »
The confusion within the thread over the existance of duplicate registers is perhaps due to the differences between Protestant and R.C. marriage proceedures.

From the start of civil registration 1845 duplicate register books were maintained by all Church of Ireland and Presbyterian Churches (+Jewish and Quaker). Bride and Groom signed both books and they were supposed to be identical. ALL other Protestant denominations required the attendance of a Registrar who registered the marriages in his own local book up to late 1863.
Each quarter the church made quarterly marriage copies which were sent to Dublin. These copies may have been made by the curate reading is elder ministers handwriting. The local Registrar made copies of the Registrar Office/Registrar Attended marriages and sent those to Dublin.

When a churches pair of books were full (they came in various page lengths with pre-printed numbers eg 1-50, 1-100, 1-240, 1-500) they sent one copy to the GRO District office and retained one. Urban churches went through several ledgers a year, whereas in rural churches a ledger might last decades, some only had eg 2 marriages a year.
So initially if someone wanted a copy of an entry they got it from the church or a quarterly copy from Dublin.
Later they had 3 options church (they still had a filled book), the District Office (a filled book) & Dublin (quarterly copy).

After the Marriage Law & Registration of Amendment Acts June/July 1863 Methodist, Baptist and various other Protestant denominations (those that had applied to be licensed and were officially recorded as Places of Worship), were also issued duplicate books and attendance by the registrar was no longer required. His attendance was still required at non-licensed venues such as Congregational / Pentecostal Churches & Mission Halls, taking his local book with him.

By the original Acts the District's filled marriage books along with the filled Birth and Death registrars were never to leave the local District Office, then the Workhouse. Workhouses are no more and civil offices have replaced them (with longer opening hours, it was originally just a hour morning and late afternoon several days a week by the local sub-district registrar who was also often the doctor and responsible for vaccinations too).
Quote
With a few exceptions the Dispensary Districts constitute Registrars' Districts, and the Dispensary Medical Officer is the Registrar. Poor Law Unions constitute Superintendent Registrars' Districts, and the Clerk of the Union is the Superintendent Registrar, with whom the filled [Birth & Death] registers are deposited.

The Church's retained original may now be found housed in the RCB Library, NAI, PRONI, or by the respective denomination's central archive (eg Quaker, Presbyterian, Methodist Historical Society), some are still retained locally in the church safe.

On irish genealogy we can see the original Church of Ireland registrars for Dublin and some other areas via 'church records'. There were only TWO marriages to a page.
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=d-511-3-2-007
vs the quarterly copies which had space for 4 marriages and handwritten entry number #13.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1866/11553/8249527.pdf

ROMAN CATHOLIC churches were not licensed, they were not issued with GRO books or expected to perform a role as a surrogate registrar.
R.C. Registration was by return of a signed certificate/form to the GRO following the marriage, hence the additional marginal column seen on irish genealogy recording the date of registratrion by them. It was supposed to be within 3 days but was sometimes many weeks or months later (eg 1st Feb 1879 registered 29 Aug for St Peter's, Belfast & a registration 16 Aug 1879 for a marriage 25 Dec 1877) - or sometimes never - if you cross reference the NLI's R.C. parish records to the irish genealogy quarterly copies.
The R.C. registrations were kept in books at the GRO SUB-District and each book contained entries for all the chapels in the sub-district, sometimes just 1 sometimes 5 chapels. Each quarter he sent copies to Dublin. When full he sent his book to his boss at the Workhouse the Superintendant Registrar - the Districts we search.

The GRO commented on the imperfections of R.C. marriage proceedures half way down page 5 in his 1881 report.
Quote
so much depends upon the manner in which the 'husband’ discharges his duty as conveyer of the certificate of marriage to the Registrar, and, in fact, his action as informant of his own marriage, that in spite of the desire of the clergy and the care of the Registrar, many marriages are imperfectly registered

references & continuation next comment...

Offline Jon_ni

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Re: Apparent Error in GRO Copy, Can GRO Check Original?
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 07 October 23 08:02 BST (UK) »
References:
An Act for Marriages in Ireland; and for registering such Marriages. [9 August 1844]
http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/View?path=Browse/Legislation%20(by%20date)&active=yes&mno=4047
or old printed version on FamilySearch https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/247928
Registration of Marriages (Ireland) Act, 1863 (#11-13). [28th July 1863]
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1863/act/90/enacted/en/print.html
or http://www.histpop.org/ohpr/servlet/View?path=Browse/Legislation%20(by%20date)/1863&active=yes&mno=4054
Registrar General Historical Reports:
1st Annual Report of the Registrar-General of Marriages, Births and Deaths in Ireland, 1864 (Introduction & Appendix)
https://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/birthsdm/archivedreports/P-VS_1864.pdf
18th Annual Report of the Registrar-General of Marriages, Births and Deaths in Ireland, 1881
https://archive.org/details/op1251206-1001/page/n7/mode/2up
13th Annual Report of the Registrar General (N.I.) 1934
https://www.nisra.gov.uk/sites/nisra.gov.uk/files/publications/1934.pdf
14th Annual Report of the Registrar General (N.I.) 1935
https://www.nisra.gov.uk/sites/nisra.gov.uk/files/publications/1935.pdf


Offline Jon_ni

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Re: Apparent Error in GRO Copy, Can GRO Check Original?
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 07 October 23 08:02 BST (UK) »
All the GRO births, deaths and marriages on GRONI's website for Northern Ireland are imaged from the original local registrar books as they had no quarterly copies - being all in Dublin pre 1 Jan 1922. The images have pre-printed entry numbers and actual signatures on marriages and eg recognise my father's signature as informant on his father's Belfast death 1960.
From 1922 on they had quarterly copies but in a reverse to irish genealogy those have not been digitised and one wonders if are ever currently utilised.

Differences do exist between the originals and the Dublin copies, often in the spelling of surnames Stewart vs Stuart. Some of the ministers perhaps needed to go to specsavers and they were working by a flickering parafin lamp reading one or other of their 2 ledgers and writing on loose blank copy sheets from memory. Some were more exact in making a precise transcript than others so might have William in the original vs Wm in the copy or vice versa.
In Northern Ireland I have come across some register ledgers which do not seem to have made their way to the GRO (Linenhall Street Presbyterian 1845-1864 there are copies on irish gen but no index listing on GRONI, same for St John's Tyrella 1845-1915, having cross-checked all entries on the copy pages and adjacent pages for several years). Whether they were not deposited or simply unimaged is unknown but these original ledgers are filed away and recourse only made to the online index and images by staff routinely.

Quote
1934: Facilities for Searches—Certified copies of all entries of births, deaths, and marriages registered each quarter are forwarded to the Registrar-General, General Register Office, Belfast.
Those relating to the years prior to 1922 are, however, still in the General Register Office, Dublin.
Searches may be made either in the original registers or indexes in local custody or in the indexes in the General Register Office, and certified copies obtained from either source.
1935: The original records of births, deaths, and marriages registered in Northern Ireland are, in general, in the custody of local registration officers, who issue annually therefrom many thousands of certificates. The Head Office copies of these records for the years prior to 1922 are still in the hands of the Registrar-General, Dublin.

When one browses images see that some ministers were tardy in submitting their quarterly copies or sent them Annually and the Dublin Clerks had to insert pages in the earlier quarters with the just the date, the 2 names and church in Q1 saying eg see Q3.
In the initial year or so 2 ministers in Co Antrim misunderstood recording all marriages twice in the same book as eg entries 3 & 4 and copied them to Dublin as such.
The poor Downpatrick Registrar 1845-47 copied all the Church of Ireland and Presbyterian marriages into his own District ledger (filling 2 in the process) then copied that to Dublin whilst the individual Churches quarterly ones were also sent there - so we can see that he made copy errors in names and in one case the church differs. GRONI indexes both original church and district ledger books so on both Dublin and N.I. there are 2 entries and 4 different actual documents.
The Dublin clerks also corresponded sometimes with the ministers if unsure of what the his writing and the surname was and made marginal comments clarifying.

Dublin consists of Volumes of loose pages from all the churches in a District generally ordered roughly alphabetically by parish or church name starting C of I, then Presby, then Methodist/Baptist, then Registrar Office and ending with the R.C. sub-district marriages. Each leaf annotated at the top by the Dublin clerks with a page number for indexing purposes (names + Volume/page). However, they were not fussy with the church leaves being filed in chronological order so see March before Jan then Feb. I worked through several Districts using Shane Wilson's http://www.irelandgen.com/tools/gro_img_nav.php explained https://www.swilson.info/wp/?p=2105 to compile a database of GRONI church reference #s I could use post 1921 [if a film reel ends part way through increment or decrement the middle set of numbers] 

GRONI's online index reference differs:
M/1920/B1/418/151/1 is Marriage 1920 in Belfast district church 418 = St Anne's Cathedral, 151 is the ledger (they had had 151 pairs of books issued from 1845-1920) and 1 is the 1st entry in that ledger.
M/1919/A1/2/1/72 Ardquin Church of Ireland, Newtownards district had only performed 72 marriages since 1845 and were still on their 1st pair of books 1919 so if you lived locally & wanted a copy of your parents or grandparent's marriage you would have got it from the minister rather than at Newtownards Workhouse.
Each Protestant church has a unique reference number (maintained through successive buildings if congregation moved closing in one location & opening another) and one can extrapolate it to pay to view entries post -1921. R.C. marriage references are to the sub-district - in rural areas they are more or less the same till 1973 but eg in Belfast as it grew and sub-districts doubled in number the same chapel will later be in a different sub-district.

As to the current location of the filled BMD ledgers I suspect they are all stored centrally now in/around Belfast after QUB digitised 2008-10. I asked the junior staff member in the search room March this year but he had never had cause to use.

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Re: Apparent Error in GRO Copy, Can GRO Check Original?
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 07 October 23 19:18 BST (UK) »
Thanks to Jon_NI for his very comprehensive explication of the topic.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Jon_ni

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Re: Apparent Error in GRO Copy, Can GRO Check Original?
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 08 October 23 00:16 BST (UK) »
Wexflyer
One thing I wondered about was a comment within yesterdays seperate posting about local ledgers. In the background you said in the 1990s and early 2000s you were able to examine original registers, and make extracts.
Quote
- These were the original registers, so no question of copying errors
- The original registers contain the actual signatures (or marks) of the parties or informants concerned.

I started researching later and looked at my 2 English grandparents first (easier), followed by the Irish ones when the census was online so after 2010. GRONI images for N.I. appeared Apr 2014 & then IrishGen Sep 2016 but incomplete marriages initially, only back to 1886. Hence I paid to view some on GRONI that are now available freely as Dublin GRO copies. However, none of the pay to view N.I. marriages were R.C. and one only sees a single row not the entire page of several.
I have never laid hands on an original ledger in GRONI or PRONI (used their microfilm pre-civil-era).

The Registration of Marriages (Ireland) Act, 1863 required the return of a signed R.C. certificate which was the exact same format/content as the online marriages per example A on the irishstatutebook link.
Quote
"Every registrar, on receipt of any such certificate, shall enter the particulars thereof in the register book"
That implied no original signatures in his book - they would only exist if the loose returned certificates had been locally bound in a volume.

There was a 1947 Belfast marriage I was semi-interested in for someone that was a distant cousin and by then the parties would not have marked X. So, £2.50 later yes it was from the Local Registrar's original ledger, with two pre-printed no. 14's, but not with their signatures. The 1896 irish gen image paired with it in the attachment differs only in that that is a copy of a copy on a blank loose sheet where the entry numbers have been handwritten too.
The GRONI Registration Number was M/1947/B1/2340/11/14 and the 'Place of Marriage' in their provided transcript 'Urban No.16 R.C.' ie a sub-district which may contain other churches on the proceeding & subsequent marriage entries. The image shows it to be St Matthews (Ballymacarrett) which is what I had expected from the coding, but could have been St Anthony's which opened 1938 and was a chapel at ease till 1955.

What happened to the loose signed certs, were they just binned? Probably hypothetical as the GRO received lots of other communication & notifications we have no access to + the various special licence applications. The Churches also had behind the scenes Diocesan and Presbytery docs eg Marriage Notice Books https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/432078
PRONI show some of those on their eCat for various places so must request one sometime.

Section 18 of the 1863 Act the right to search local district indexes and obtain a certified copy does not appear to have been repealed (reworded 2002 but still effective), though the current practicalities of that may be rarely tested.

John

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Re: Apparent Error in GRO Copy, Can GRO Check Original?
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 08 October 23 07:38 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the further update. Upon reflection, I was hasty in implying that the local district marriage register contained original signatures. It was 2004, 19 years ago, since I last saw these. To the best of my considered recollection the marriage signatures were not original.
So the position was:
- Birth and death registers - original signatures
- Marriage registers - not original signatures. But these were the original Catholic marriage registers, the GRO ones being copies.

I meant to discuss what happened to the original, signed, forms with the registry office staff, but they and I were always busy. I guess I have always found it difficult to believe that in those days of very strict economy (1860s onwards), a "valuable" official form, with multiple signatures, would be simply discarded.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area

Offline Jon_ni

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Re: Apparent Error in GRO Copy, Can GRO Check Original?
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 08 October 23 21:22 BST (UK) »
Makes sense, if had been consulting CoI or Presbyterian marriages those would have had signatures. Seems strange they insisted on signatures of all on the R.C. return, including witnesses, and then just copied into their books.
On the quarterly copies there are some crossed out for 'the signatures are not all genuine' or signatures missing.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1867/11494/8225632.pdf
The Garland marriage is in the parish register, with the same witnesses, but without the bride's forname. However the 1st one appears on June 14 rather than May 15.
https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000633240#page/75/mode/1up

In other Districts I had rarely seen crossing out, just when the marriage had been registered in the wrong Sub-District's books or a marriage licence had not been applied for before, in which case there there was another entry or later licensed marriage.
I began to suspect that Superintendent Registrar had a religion problem though, as there seemed to be a lot of crossing out of Sub-District entries and those that are don't appear on the modern GRONI index - presubably as they can't issue a cert for a cancelled entry in their ledger.