4th Great or 5th Great?

[Phenmark]

I have a big 20 year old question mark regarding my relationship to a known ancestor. My hunch is he (and his wife) are my 4x gr grandparents, parents of my 3x great, Job, and my recent DNA results on ancestry seem to support this.
However, it appears on paper his son is my 4th, here's why. And please bear with my attempt at being thoroughly clear.
John Baker (1816), eldest son of Samuel, & wife, Sarah, had a son, Job (1835), baptized privately at home in Newfoundland.
A year later, John's parents, Sam and Jane, had a son, "John" (1836), baptized in a church.
I contend that the baby, Job (1835), died soon after the private baptism, and Sam's son, baptized as John (1836) is actually my Job.
My reasoning:
First of all I know it's not absolutely impossible, but why would Sam and Jane name two sons, John? I am sure John (1816) survived, resettled in Notre Dame Bay abt. 1840, and had more children, thus they didn't name the baby, "John" (1836), in his memory. Samuel remained in Carbonear.
Secondly, when my Job married in 1859, his residence is give as Carbonear, indicating he never left with John (1816). Also, Samuel is named as a witness at the marriage.
Thirdly, Samuel and Job were entered as witnesses at the marriage of one of Samuel's daughters. If my Job was John (1816)'s son, he would be the nephew of the bride. That would be odd, especially given the fact that she had many brothers who could have been witnesses.
Fourthly, Baby Job (1835) must have been in a dire situation. Newfoundland in the 1830s in November was a cold rugged place. For a priest or reverend to be called out to a private residence there must have been an immediate need.
Fifthly, My Job named 2 of his children, Samuel and Jane, as well as the same names of Samuel's other children. None were named John or Sarah.
And finally we come to my DNA matches. So as to not have a ridiculously long post I'll try to come up with a concise way to summarize in a new post. This has been one of my brick walls for so long, I would be very grateful for all thoughts and insight.
Stephen

[Phenmark]

Continuing.
The cousin relationships to me listed below are indicated with the assumption that my Job is Sam & Jane's son. I have matches from and through 7 of Sam & Jane's children:
Through John (1816): 2 matches,
25 cM (5th cousin)
50 cM (5th 1x) I believe we share some DNA from another line as well. 4 segments.
Through Mary: 7 matches,
12 cM (5th)
13 cM (4th 1x)
13 cM (5th 1x)
27 cM (5th 1x)
8 cM (5th 1x)
16 cM (5th)
29 cM (5th)
Through Elizabeth: 4 matches,
8 cM (5th)
19 cM (5th 1x)
17 cM (5th 1x)
13 cM (5th 1x)
Through Joseph: 7 matches,
9 cM (5th)
29 cM (5th 1x)
13 cM (5th)
14 cM (5th)
16 cM (4th 1x)
15 cM (4th 1x)
28 cM (4th 1x)
Through Ann Maria: 10 matches,
12 cM (5th)
17 cM (5th)
16 cM (5th)
17 cM (4t 1x)
14 cM (5th)
34 cM (5th 1x)
25 cM (4th 1x)
51 cM (4th 1x)
47 cM (5th)
19 cM (4th 1x)
Through Job (excluding my direct line). Matches in bold are through Reuben, my 2nd great grandfather.
123 cM (2nd 1x)
12 cM (3rd)
63 cM (3rd)
42 cM (3rd)
99 cM (3rd)
23 cM (3rd 1x)
55 cM (3rd 1x)
23 cM (3rd 1x)
43 cM (4th)
Through James: 5 matches,
12 cM (4th 1x)
18 cM (4th 1x)
16 cM (4th 1x)
12 cM (5th 1x)
12 cM (4th 1x)
Being new to DNA, I don't know if there may be something that could indicate my relationship to Samuel & Jane. Thanks very much!

[Biggles50]

My head hurts.

Information overload.

DNA can unlock mysteries, it can also bring them to the surface.

It is difficult to be definitive but you do seem to be on the right track.

In your case you may benefit from printing out your family tree and marking off each MRCA to a DNA match and drawing in via a coloured pencil their route, repeat with each match.

I too have some Same Names actually in my case it is a brace of Mary’s who are a brickwall with DNA matches linking to both of them

[Phenmark]

My head hurts.

Information overload.

DNA can unlock mysteries, it can also bring them to the surface.

It is difficult to be definitive but you do seem to be on the right track.

In your case you may benefit from printing out your family tree and marking off each MRCA to a DNA match and drawing in via a coloured pencil their route, repeat with each match.

I too have some Same Names actually in my case it is a brace of Mary’s who are a brickwall with DNA matches linking to both of them

Thanks, Biggles. Yeah, sorry for the text wall. As I was writing I could see it was getting ridiculous. However, it gave me a good look at all my matches to Sam. As you said, Biggles, things can come to the surface. My 3 highest values are:
50cM from John (1816), (5th 1x)
51cM & 47cM, both from Ann Maria, (4th 1x & 5th)
As it pertains to my original question, namely, is John (1816) my 4th great, or Samuel? It strikes me that the values from John (1816) are not remarkably higher than those from his siblings.
If he were my direct ancestor, wouldn't the cM of matches from him be higher?
ADD: I know what you mean about a brace of Mary's! Similar situation in another line!

[Biggles50]

In answer to your question, yes you would expect a parent to give a higher cM than their child.

There is a but, in that DNA is not inherited in a linear fashion, it is a random process called Recombination.

I myself have a new pair of DNA matches, the Father has 12cM and his Son 14cM shared with me, I know their relationship through messaging the DNA Manager.

Or there could be shared DNA between the Son’s Mum and me that skews the result.

[Phenmark]

Yes, that pesky recombination. Definitely not cut 'n' dry. 

[melba_schmelba]

In answer to your question, yes you would expect a parent to give a higher cM than their child.

There is a but, in that DNA is not inherited in a linear fashion, it is a random process called Recombination.

I myself have a new pair of DNA matches, the Father has 12cM and his Son 14cM shared with me, I know their relationship through messaging the DNA Manager.

Or there could be shared DNA between the Son’s Mum and me that skews the result.

If we are talking about Ancestry, I would always check the unweighted figure. Usually when I see cases where the child has more cM than the parent, the unweighted figure is actually the same, and it is just that they have been dealt with by the Timber algorithm differently.

[4b2]

Is it possible to provide this as a tree? It would be easier to understand.

On the cM you provide, they all look reasonable, particularly the 2C1R one.

But it's worth noting that as each generation is added, the precision of cM decreases. e.g. a 900cM match could be a relatively small number of degrees of relation; while a 8cM could be many types of relation. For example an 8cM match could be anything from a 3rd to 8th cousin.

It sounds like you may benefit from using this tool: https://dnapainter.com/tools/probability

Don't enter matches below 40cM. With all your matches, you should be able to get a good idea of the possible relationships.

[Phenmark]

Is it possible to provide this as a tree? It would be easier to understand.

On the cM you provide, they all look reasonable, particularly the 2C1R one.

But it's worth noting that as each generation is added, the precision of cM decreases. e.g. a 900cM match could be a relatively small number of degrees of relation; while a 8cM could be many types of relation. For example an 8cM match could be anything from a 3rd to 8th cousin.

It sounds like you may benefit from using this tool: https://dnapainter.com/tools/probability

Don't enter matches below 40cM. With all your matches, you should be able to get a good idea of the possible relationships.

Thank you very much, 4b2,
I will try to figure a way to show my tree, at least for this line. I have been using DNA Painter. In fact, when I started using it, this theory really seemed more plausible. However, I have been using matches well below 40cM. That's a great idea, thanks!
I just did the ancestry test, and I only wish I could enter the matches there into DNA Painter.
Stephen