Who was Emma Chapman b 1843, wife of Walter Edwards

[goldfinch99]

Possible second family?
1851, Shoreditch
24 Edward Street
Emma Chapman Head W 41 Shoe Binder Middx Chelsea
Charles Chapman Son U 18 Backgammon Board Maker Middlesex Shoreditch
Emily Chapman Daur 8 Middlesex Shoreditch

1841, Shoreditch
Richards Place
Emma Chapman 32 Shoe Binder Yes (born county)
Charles Chapman 8 Yes
Henry Chapman 2

Would give the possiblity that the Emma Maria who witnessed Charles' marriage was his mother?

That isn't Charles Curtis Chapman jr as he's present in other censuses. That doesn't rule them out of being another family for CCC sr though, but I expect if this Charles' marriage was found it could be ruled out.

As I sad before there was a third Emma.  In 1841 she's with her mother Ann Chapman, I think aged 6.  In 1851 Ann and Emma had changed their name to Chapmanbury.  This Emma marred as Emma Isabella Chapmanbury with Charles Chapmanbury watchmaker as the father. I don't know if this Ann Chapman was legally married to CCC or legally divorced but this does mean there were two wives called Ann who were alive at the same time.

I think Emma Maria is Emma 1841, Emma Short. My one is the only one for whom I can't find a moddle name anywhere.

[goldfinch99]

There's no need for either parent to be present at a baptism. Also, no need for someone to be baptised before getting married.

Thanks!

[amondg]

I was looking for business notices in the newspaper for Charles and or Curtis Chapman and found this.

It only adds to the puzzle.

15 February 1838 Morning Post, London
(paraphrased)  Curtis Chapman and Elizabeth Chapman alias Mary Ann Stanton were accused of stealing about 80 yards of silk. The female lived at 4 Club Row.(remember this address)
Case goes before the court and is just so happens that Mr. Bennet the Beadle of St Luke's  is in the office and says that the man's wife and three children are in the workhouse. Upon being told of the incident his wife loses her sense of reason.

Curtis Chapman married Charlotte Hill 2 May 1824 witness Henry Chapman.

Charlotte Chapman age 53 is buried 10 March 1838 at St Andrews Holborn - from the Grey's Inn Workhouse.   (His Wife? )

Ann daughter of Charles Curtis Chapman 26 April 1830 of 11 Club Row, Bethnal Green. address!!
This would be Ann age 11 on 1841 census.

Are the records of Grey's Inn Workhouse available for 1838 ?

What if Amelia 1832 Charles 1834 and Emma born 1843 are children of Charles and Ann just not the Ann Herbert he married in 1839 who also had a daughter Emma 1841.

He has shown that even when his wife and children were in the workhouse he was visiting another woman.

[jonw65]

I am also confused at Walter Edwards and Emma Chapman's marriage in 1863 as they are both 20 but not listed as minors and I don't recognise either of the witnesses on the cert.

The witnesses were James Wren and Mary Ann Murray
So they seem to be the couple who married at St. James on the same day. Both were widowed.
A bit strange because theirs was the marriage before Walter and Emma (numbers 92 and 93 in the register) so Mary Ann should have witnessed as Mary Ann Wren (unless she had a daughter present, or something like that!)
Or maybe James and Mary Ann married after your couple, but the register was already written out, bar the signatures/marks. Perhaps that makes more sense.

[jonw65]

Looking at some of the online trees which have Charles Curtis Chapman marrying Ann Edwards in 1855, they then have another marriage for him as plain Charles Chapman in 1857 (and later a third marriage)
Obviously we know that this can't be right, but it does beg the question of whether there were two Charles born around the same time, and with the same father?

The 1857 marriage was at Saint Mary Haggerston on 12th July
Charles Chapman, full, Bachelor, Carpet Maker, residence Gloucester St, father Charles Chapman, Watch Finisher
+
Harriett Jones, full, Spinster, residence Gloucester St

By 1861 they have moved up to Durham, and in the census Charles is 27, born Middlesex St. Luke's.

Remember that for the Ann/Amelia/Charles/Emma Chapman family in Bethnal Green in the 1851 census, no occupations are given.
So, theoretically, Charles could be the chap who married Harriet, and who was a carpet maker / weaver. Or, yes, he could also be the shoe maker who married Ann (but not both!)

That isn't Charles Curtis Chapman jr as he's present in other censuses.

There is no hiding from the fact that his occupation doesn't match the husband of Ann Edwards. But he was only 18 in 1851, perhaps he didn't get on very well with the backgammon table making.
Mother Emma was a shoe binder in 1841 and 1851, so at least there is a link with the shoemaking world.

[jonw65]

Emma Short had a brother named after his father, Charles Curtis Chapman, and he married Ann Edwards, sister of Walter Edwards who married my Emma.

Still not sure about the first bit (Short/Edwards connection). It doesn't really add up. Two Ann's with daughters called Emma, who are both accounted for later. It makes more sense if the third Emma (the one we want) had a different mother (and another Charles as her brother!)

Walter and Ann Edwards were siblings.
They were at 23 Mill Row in 1851. Civil parish Shoreditch.
Sub-district Haggerstone West
Enumeration district 20

Meanwhile, Emma/Charles/Emily Chapman were at 24 Edward Street (spooky!) in Shoreditch
Sub-district Haggerstone West
Enumeration district 21

My, those two families were very close to each other in 1851. By the Regents Canal, with Hackney to the north.

[jonw65]

My, those two families were very close to each other in 1851. By the Regents Canal, with Hackney to the north.

Even closer than I thought (or dreamed) They were practically next door neighbours!
Kelly's Post Office Directory Map Of London 1857
https://mapco.net/kelly1857/kelly05b.htm

Scroll down in a line from appx the "39" at the top, under which is written "Kingsland"
Down past the little lunatic asylum, and the canal.
Then Canal Road
Under which is Mill Row
Under which is Philipps Street, with Edward Street to the left (west)

[jonw65]

marriage certificates...I think the father's profession was always either watch maker, watch spring maker, or jeweller

Charles Chapman, full, Bachelor, Carpet Maker, residence Gloucester St, father Charles Chapman, Watch Finisher

Another story from the newspapers. This time from Lloyd's Illustrated Newspaper, 7 June 1846
SATURDAY'S POLICE.
WORSHIP-STREET.
A NICE HUSBAND—Curtis Chapman, a watch finisher, who was only a month ago held to bail from this office for a brutal assault on Ann Chapman, his wife, was this day brought up in custody of the police, charged with again assaulting her on the previous evening.

Attached.

[jonw65]

goldfinch99, do please come back and tell us where you are now with all this.

Birth dates for the children of the 1845 triple baptism, from Middlesex Parish Registers, 1539-1988, on FamilySearch
Amelia, 17 May 1832
Charles, 13 August 1834
Emma, 21 February 1841

So perhaps Amelia, Charles and Ann (11 in 1841) were the three children in the workhouse with mother Charlotte in 1838, as posted by amondg

Why did Ann say in 1846 that she had had four children by Curtis Chapman, all living?