Phoenix family Hope/Cefn Y Bedd/Cymau/Gwersyllt

[MadMazzy]

Hello all.
I was wondering if anyone could help..........  I'm doing the family tree of a family friend as a gift for a special birthday and I am so stuck.  The Phoenix/Phenix/Fenix (variety of spellings as spelt as it is said I think) family I'm trying to find on the Census for 1861 are as follows: -
Edward Phoenix born 1799 in Wrexham, Denbigshire
Elizabeth Phoenix born about 1793 although could have been about 1796 in Hope, Flintshire
Robert Phoenix born 1832 in Hope, Flintshire
Edward Phoenix born 1834 in Hope, Flintshire
Mary Anne Phoenix born 1838 in Hope, Flintshire
Ithell Phoenix born 1841 in Gwersyllt, Denbighshire (Ithell has been transcribed as Athell/Ethell etc)
There are two other daughters but they were already married in 1861.
In 1851 they lived in Cefn Y Bedd as a family.  No record of them there in 1861 and I have looked all through the Census for that area.  By 1871 Elizabeth was a widow and living back in Cefn Y Bedd with son Robert.  Same in 1881.  I am not sure if Edward senior died at the Union Workhouse in 1857.  Have searched on Find my Past and Ancestry, no luck at all.  Anyone know of this family please?   

[Gadget]

Sadly, as with your other request for 1841, the  1861 census for the Hope area is missing

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/census-for-england-wales-and-scotland-missing-pieces

Gadget

[MadMazzy]

Thanks for the information Gadget.  I am having such bad luck with this       I am also doing a tree for family and the half of the Eryrys census for 1861 that is missing is the bit I need to see.  What was it about 1861 

[Gadget]

https://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/en/miscellanea/missing-census-records

If it's any consolation, I also have missing ancestors on the 1841 and 1861 in Flintshire and Denbighshire. I've had to ue parish records, etc. to partially fill in the gaps.



Gadget 

[Gadget]

I've had a quick look through for them using surname variations but, although there are quite a few, they don't match your name/age information. It does look as if they are in the missing sections.

Gadget

[MadMazzy]

Thank you for that Gadget.  Really appreciate it.  I think I got Elizabeth Phoenix burial at Hope aged 95, in 1885, although I thought she would be between 89 to 92.  It looks like they made ages up as they went along 

[wilcoxon]

http://www.clwydsurnames2.uk/index.html

Have a look at this site. It's excellent
Go to P ,then search page for Phoenix  , you get that and all variations of the name.
It's only Church Parish Registers but might help.

[MadMazzy]

Thanks for that wilcoxon 
Another question, has anyone come across a complete howler on ages, say about 10 years difference?  The Elizabeth Phoenix nee Jones that I’m looking at was born in Hope, Flintshire (according to the census returns, although I think it was probably Cymau) and I’m thinking baptised in the Church there as her children later were.  Eighteen Elizabeth Jones’ were baptised in Hope between 1791 and 1801.  I found one with parents Robert and Jane which caught my eye as my Elizabeth eldest daughter is named Jane and her eldest son Robert.  This baptism was 1794 which fitted Elizabeth age better.  I then searched for children baptised in Hope with parents Robert and Jane, found another to same parents born in 1799, so thought first Elizabeth must have died although can’t find burial record.  They also had a son named Ithell which my Elizabeth did too.  I thought maybe too much to be a coincidence.  Sorry to rabbit on just wanted to see what others thought.  Thanks 

[Gadget]

Do you have information on Edward's parents and siblings to check naming patterns?

It does seem worth chasing up on Elizabeth's possible parents and on Ithell (brother).