Author Topic: Marriage within the LDS communities.  (Read 1754 times)

Offline Essnell

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Marriage within the LDS communities.
« on: Wednesday 08 November 23 10:16 GMT (UK) »
Hello,  Yes a bit confused here.
My daughter says the Laterday Saints don't marry and live as groups....  but 

I am researching a person who is a child of one of my ancestors. I have some information from a number of yeas ago which has needed rechecking. Just as well, and thank goodness for Rootschat..... 

The person is male and appears to have three spouses at different times.
The names are so mixed up  even on government documents that I can't tell who came first or last and who the parents were of the children.  Add to that the wives appear to also had other spouses and children to them.

Much of this occurs in San Fransisco USA but starts in England and Scotland.

Question , Was it required  by the Mormon Church for such unions to be formally recorded.   Or were these recorded as civil ceremonies by the Country Authorities. I have found nothing to help sort out when these couples were together.
Some had noted on the USA Census as divorced.   So that is even more confusing.   

Sorry about the oddity in my post but it's all just too muddled .
Essnell.


Offline jim1

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Re: Marriage within the LDS communities.
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 08 November 23 15:07 GMT (UK) »
You need to supply some names & dates.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline california dreamin

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Re: Marriage within the LDS communities.
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 08 November 23 17:02 GMT (UK) »
It is my understanding the Mormons (members of the LDS/Latter Day Saints) could only legally have 1 wife.  It may be that the church recorded any other 'marriages' but they would only have been recognised within the church not by the 'State'. The first marriage would be the legal one.

Here's a quick google for you : https://faq.churchofjesuschrist.org/how-many-wives-can-mormons-have#:~:text=Mormon%20men%20can%20lawfully%20have,1830s%20to%20the%20early%201900s.

CD

Offline ChrissieL

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Re: Marriage within the LDS communities.
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 08 November 23 19:05 GMT (UK) »
John S Haslam was a distant cousin of mine. Having been recruited by the Mormons in Lancashire, he became one of the pioneers who sailed to America around 1842. He married his first wife in Missouri in 1845.  She died in 1867 and within a few months it was recommended by the Elders in the faith that he marry again, he did so within a few months. His second wife had been divorced from her husband who had mistreated her. I have looked into many of his family members and have never found anyone having more than one wife at a time

Chris
Staffordshire: Lawton Probyn Horrobin
Durham: Bamlett Hardman Winship Robinson
Suffolk: Leggett


Offline Essnell

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Re: Marriage within the LDS communities.
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 08 November 23 22:50 GMT (UK) »
Thank you everyone who replied. Very much appreciated. 

So I have possibly sorted out the three.  However the legal marriage documents just don't seem to exist.  Therefore here are the persons. 
 Husband:  Frederick Mark Mornement. Born 14th April 1877 [Stoke Newington] Hackney London England.
                                                              Died: 2nd April 1974 San Fransisco, California. 
                                                             Immigrated in 1904.  Became Naturalised US citizen - have not got the date.    wives.  1. Laura Maria Ashford   Born 1880 Hoxne, Suffolk England
      Possible marriage  1904  Redwood City, San Mateo, California USA.

          2. Elsie Margeret Hyslop Brown:  1940 US Census:  Born Scotland   Divorced. 
                    Other info  born 15th Dec. 1896, San Fransisco, California .
   I have made a small family tree for this person.
      Her mother married twice first to Brown and then to Cowperthwait.  There are various versions of Elsie's name on searches and trees.
      Possible marriage date October 1916  but I don't know where or if that is correct.
They have a daughter  Frederika Jean Mornement  --- born in California and married there. AOK

         3.  Olga Retania Koning  born 7th August 1892 San Fransisco, California.  I have her parents. She was Naturalised in 1932 and that info came off the passenger list of the ship "Reliance". She was a Tourist.

Her first marriage was to Girault S Wright in 1912 in USA. There are two Wright children. 
This family came from Germany.
But after this Olga married Frederick Mark Mornement and is buried under that last name in USA.

Maybe I am being too fussy but I feel that the BMD documents are important. 
so where do I go in the US to find these.   As at present I am just going on Search info and Trees and that's not the best way.

Thanks again  for ideas etc. Essnell.
Ps.   Elsie was from a Mormon family in Renfrewshire, Scotland

Online bbart

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Re: Marriage within the LDS communities.
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 09 November 23 01:04 GMT (UK) »
News clip of intention to marry Olga, to help with dates:
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-californian-mornement-wright-inten/134868445/

Offline Essnell

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Re: Marriage within the LDS communities.
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 09 November 23 02:48 GMT (UK) »
 
Thank you bbart.  That's an amazing site.  works through FamilySearch via MyHeritage.

 I tried the date 1940 as on the news clip with a couple of years either way.  Nothing!  Not even for Olga on her own  and not even using her maiden name instead of Wright.  Just no results or ones that were not her/them. 

Oddly the search also didn't find her birth or her death all supposedly in SAnta Clara, San Fransisco, California.   ???

I will see if I can get her previous marriage to Mr Wright.

Essnell


Online bbart

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Re: Marriage within the LDS communities.
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 09 November 23 03:00 GMT (UK) »
I'm still digging.... there is a lot to sift through!

One thing that is standing out, is that wife #2, Elsie, and Frederick were very good friends with Olga and Girault Wright throughout the 30's, ...at least until Fred and Olga ended up a couple!

Here is just one random clip of Elsie and daughter visiting.  On most clips, Fred is with them.

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-press-democrat-mornement-wright-visi/134874083/

Wife #1, Laura, seems to vanish around the time Fred had to claim bankruptcy;  maybe there is something to that (around 1916ish.... still searching that).

Will post again once I sort all my notes out!

Edit:  to strike out Fred's bankruptcy;  although Laura was last seen in 1919 on a passenger list back to the USA, Fred's money troubles were 1926 thru 1928.
Edit again Laurie vanished around 1916

Online bbart

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Re: Marriage within the LDS communities.
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 09 November 23 06:50 GMT (UK) »
A pile of stuff that really doesn't help:

1904, both Frederick and Laura come from England on different ships.  She is using the Mornement surname, and states she has never been in the USA before.

1910 USA census shows Frederick and Laura as married 6 years.
If they were married in the San Francisco area, a huge amount of records were destroyed in the massive earthquake of 1906.  https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/San_Francisco_County,_California_Genealogy

1916
Laura gets on the ship, Missanabie, in Montreal, sailing to Liverpool, to remain in England permanently, giving the address she is headed to as 46 Loncroft Rd, Camberwell.  The ship is shown as arriving 04 Sep 1916.

Elsie's naturalization showing marriage date 12 Oct 1916
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GBVN-KJL?i=498&cc=1849982


1919 Nov
Laura returns, sailing from Antwerp to Quebec, headed for San Fran and husband F.M. Mornement.
I think this is where the massive confusion seeps in.  It appears that she left him back in 1916, but returned and found him married. However, I think it is highly possible that they were never married, because I think, (but cant prove or disprove), that she was already married to a William Arthur Jones, in 1902, in Southwark, so Fred was free to marry. 

Shows Elsie as a Mornement  Nov 1920
https://www.newspapers.com/article/san-francisco-bulletin-margaret-cowperth/134874784/

1926 - 1928
Multiple mentions of court dates for Kellet v Mornement, with the last being F.M. Mornement applying for discharge, bkt.  (I originally thought bkt meant bankrupt, and maybe it does?  No idea of what it was all about; I can't find anymore about it.  Something to do with business at any rate!)

Olga is artist and decorator  1932
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-press-democrat-olga-artist-decorator/134876496/

1934 Mornements/Wrights visit
https://www.newspapers.com/article/santa-rosa-republican-wrightmornement/134874486/

1935 visit
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-press-democrat-mornementwright/134874547/

1935 another visit
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-press-democrat-mornement-visit-wrigh/134874621/

(There are dozens of such visits between the Wrights and the Mornements, but no point in posting them all, just trying to give you the jist of it all)

marriage license notification  Nov 1940 .  Note this is for an actual license, not the previous "intention of marriage".
https://www.newspapers.com/article/salinas-morning-post-license-to-wed-morn/134875148/

Olga's son marriage  Apr 1942
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-press-democrat-marriage-of-moncheur/134875213/

Olga's sons  1945
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-press-democrat-olgas-sons/134876613/

tragedy  1952
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-press-democrat-olgas-grandson/134875582/

Girault Wright obit no mention of Olga  1956
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-press-democrat-obituary-for-girault/134876715/

Fred's obit  Apr 1974
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-san-francisco-examiner-f-m-mornement/134874998/

olga obit  1981
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-press-democrat-obituary-for-olga-wri/134875267/

1990
Cannot find obit for the daughter, Fredericka J Carman, but The San Franscisco Examiner, 15 Jul 1990, has a list of cremations scattered at sea, by the Neptune Society, and there is a Fredericka J Carman on that list.

To find divorces pre-1962 in California, you have to know exactly which courthouse dealt with it.  As there was a license to marry Olga, I would think Fred and Elsie would have had to have divorced legally.

I will keep hunting for a bit, but I do think the actual documentation you need may remain your dreaded brick wall.  :(

Many edits, particularly regarding Laura.