Marriage within the LDS communities.

[*Sandra*]

Excellent, thorough research  bbart.  Photograph of Fred and Frederica  on ancestry, its always nice to put faces names . Interesting read.


Sandra 

[Essnell]

Hi bbart and Sandra,

bbart, Thankyou a million times. you have been so good doing all that digging.  I don't do too well searching for newspaper clippings.

yes the real docs may be a brick wall but this is a mass of secondary evidence to support and sort out the family.

From all these clippings it seems that they were doing very well and had a social life worth reporting. 

Elsie, I believe, did divorce Fred and probably Girault did the same with Olga.   Must have been a shock to him after so long a friendship. 
I checked on Laura for a marriage and yes William Arthur Jones comes up I used Freebmd   using combinations of names. so a Laura maria ashford did marry Wiliam Arthur Jones. I might invest in that Certificate off GRO Uk.   

BUT she is 35 yrs old on her border crossing to USA in 1919 record. That  is for a Laura Ashford, born 1883, married to Turner.
 So she did a bit of fudging along the way. 

The Cowper-Thwait clipping is Elsie's mother, Margaret Murdoch Gibson. She had remarried to Edward Cowperthwait. Where and when I have not tried to find out.

Sandra,  I shall look for that photo on ancestry. Faces to names is lovely.

Thanks again Everyone,
Essnell.

[bbart]

 
I checked on Laura for a marriage and yes William Arthur Jones comes up I used Freebmd   using combinations of names. so a Laura maria ashford did marry Wiliam Arthur Jones. I might invest in that Certificate off GRO Uk.   

If you do get the marriage cert. of Laura and William, if it is the right Laura, and he is a doctor, PLEASE let me know.  There is a quite the story of events regarding this couple, which might explain a few things regarding her relationship with Frederick!

[Essnell]

Hi bbart,
 I certainly will do that. It will tale time as it will have to come to Australia, and it is Christmas mail time. 
 
 I shall keep you posted. 
  And again thank you, as you have been digging again. 
Cheers Essnell

[Lisa in California]

…1990
Cannot find obit for the daughter, Fredericka J Carman, but The San Franscisco Examiner, 15 Jul 1990, has a list of cremations scattered at sea, by the Neptune Society, and there is a Fredericka J Carman on that list.

To find divorces pre-1962 in California, you have to know exactly which courthouse dealt with it.  As there was a license to marry Olga, I would think Fred and Elsie would have had to have divorced legally.

I will keep hunting for a bit, but I do think the actual documentation you need may remain your dreaded brick wall. 

Many edits, particularly regarding Laura.

There is a LOT of information on this thread.  Apologies, but I can’t spend the time right now trying to absorb it.     Does this help?

Fredericka Jean Carman
[Fredericka Jean Mornement]
Mother: Cowperthwaite
Father: Mornement
Born: Aug 1922 California [exact date was recorded, but I don’t like to include full details for “recent” births]
Died: 21 Jun 1990 San Francisco

I lived in San Francisco for many years; if you have any questions about the Bay Area, or if there is anything that I can research online, please feel free to ask.  Lisa

[Essnell]

Hi Everyone,

bbart:   Re Laura Mornement.  I have ordered the certificate. They usually take three weeks to arrive here.   
              I have noticed that  there are a couple of discrepancies.  so :
    1. Laura's name on coming to  USA is Laura M Mornement.
    2. On the 1910 Census for USA her name is Laura M Mornement age 29
    3.  In 1919 when she returns from England the border crossing card documents the Canadian to USA crossing is again just Laura M Mornement, she is 35 and previously been in USA for 12 years to 1916..
She is going to her Husband F M Mornement at 239 Gersy Geary Street, San Fransisco. 

4.  The person married to William Arthur Jones is Laura MARIE Ashford, born Southwark, Eng 1883.

5.  A  number of trees have Laura Maria Ashford born Bruisyard which in the district of Badingham which is within the Reg District of Hoxne.  This person was born 1880.
 They claim that she is her Grandmother's step-father's cousin's daughter (of site manager)
1881 Bruisyard, Suffolk.
The 1881 date is what they have used but GRO has 1880  therefore I think born early in the December Quarter. 

6. They also say her grand-mother's married name is  Cowperthwait however that is from the second marriage and would be Step grfather and she is his cousin's daughter.  I need to re check that  asap.

So this matches the information found in the USA clippings.  I am hoping that this "Marie" is a transcription error.

Lisa in California:  Thank you for the info on Frederika Jean Carman.   She married Charles M Carman Jnr but I do not have the date. It would have been in San Fransisco. 
 
Thank you both  .
Essnell

[Lisa in California]

Not important, but in case it isn’t a typo…the address in 1919 was most likely 239 Geary Street.

California marriage index (Anc*try)
“Fredrcka” J Mornement
Estimated Birth Year: about 1922.  Age 29.
Marriage Date: 13 October 1951
Marriage Place: San Francisco, California
Spouse: Charles M Carman
Spouse’s Age: 31

[Essnell]

  thank you  Lisa    It wasnt a typo. I just couldn't read the Card image -  it's smudgy.
Also for the extra info for Frederika Jean's Marriage.   My big gifted pedigree is full of holes.   

Essnell.

[Essnell]

I would like to put this on a new thread but my question comes from a 1901 Scotland Census for the father of Elsie Margaret Brown married Mornement  :   Henry Orchard Brown.

His Occupation is: " Jeommession Merchant Coat" 

Can anyone explain what this Occupation is?
 I have looked . I get a merchant coat covered with all sorts of useful items in many pockets and slings..  if hat is what it is then he was a type of hawker, selling odd items required by country folk.   These were Merchant Coats.

Note: I was searching for birth and marriage records off Scotlands people to no avail. again appear to be non existant.        but there are Census Records  ?? 

Essnell