Clonkeen, in what Catholic Parish?

[Ghostwheel]

I know that Clonkeen must be in either the Catholic parish of Balyna or else in Carbury and Dunforth.

I am sure that I saw it while reading one of the registers years ago, when I wasn't particularly interested in the place, but I forget which one.  And I am having a bit of trouble refinding it.

Can anyone elucidate it for me?

[Ghostwheel]

I have found it in Carbury and Dunforth.

But I am wondering if it could have ever been a part of Balyna, say, in the 1660s.

How hard or fungible are parish lines?

In Kerry,  I've seen instances where people switch parishes without switching their townland.

[Kiltaglassan]

I have found it in Carbury and Dunforth.

Carbury and Dunforth

Diocese of Kildare and Leighlin | County of Kildare
Variant names: Carbury, Donfort, Castlecarberry and Donfort, Carbury and Donfiert, Castlecarberry, Donfiert, Dunforth, Dunfiert

https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0696

Neighbouring Catholic parish-
Balyna
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0692

[Sinann]

Looking on Irish Ancestors (there is a link on the main page of each RC parish) Clonkeen is in the Civil Parish of Carbury.
The Civil Parish of Carbury is listed under both Balyna RC parish and Carbury and Dunforth RC Parish.
So they probably used the church closest to them or the one with nicest Parish priest.

[Ghostwheel]

Much obliged for your help, Sinann.

I was also wondering whether another townland, Kilmurry, could have ever been in Balyna parish.

Balyna doesn't seem to be associated with that Civil Parish.  (Dunfierth)

But I know a priest of Balyna lived there in 1704.  (Could a priest live outside his parish?  I think I'll ask this question on the general board) And an old variant name for Balyna is Johnstown, which is a townland that borders Kilmurry.

If I had to guess, I would say that it was a part of Balyna, at one time.  But there appears to be no way to test it.

[Wexflyer]

I know that Clonkeen must be in either the Catholic parish of Balyna or else in Carbury and Dunforth.

I am sure that I saw it while reading one of the registers years ago, when I wasn't particularly interested in the place, but I forget which one.  And I am having a bit of trouble refinding it.

Can anyone elucidate it for me?

As you yourself seem to realize, the 19th century/modern Catholic parish boundaries that you see on the NLI don't necessarily correspond to those in the 17th or very early 18th centuries. You can see that from many of the 1704 registrations. The civil parishes listed as held by parish priests at the time don't necessarily correspond to more modern groupings, at least in the case of Ferns. And more fundamentally, modern Catholic parishes often (usually?) don't respect the old civil parish boundaries at all, whereas back then, the civil parishes were the only units of reference.

I wonder if people realize this last point - that the modern Catholic parishes do not respect the borders of the old civil parishes?

[Ghostwheel]

If I understand correctly, it was the bishop who had the power to define parishes.  Not sure what factors he would have weighed.

I understand that in1678, the diocese of Leighlin was put into administration of the Kildare bishops and later amalgamated in no small measure because the revenues of both places were considered very low.

I wonder if a similar thing could have happened with parishes.

It is really quite confusing to hear the old names of parishes.  Sometimes they seem to change the name entirely, and I wonder why.  Maybe, the location of the church moved.  Or of the PP.

[Wexflyer]

If I understand correctly, it was the bishop who had the power to define parishes.  Not sure what factors he would have weighed.

I understand that in1678, the diocese of Leighlin was put into administration of the Kildare bishops and later amalgamated in no small measure because the revenues of both places were considered very low.

I wonder if a similar thing could have happened with parishes.

It is really quite confusing to hear the old names of parishes.  Sometimes they seem to change the name entirely, and I wonder why.  Maybe, the location of the church moved.  Or of the PP.

Basically yes. The pre-reformation civil parishes were typically far, far too small to support a single priest via voluntary contributions, so Catholic parishes were perforce much larger, typically the size of 3-6 or more civil parishes (depending on their size).

The same process was evident in the established church, the Church of Ireland. In much of the country there weren't enough parishoners to support having a church in each civil parish, and after disestablishment in 1871 there was the same issue of voluntary contributions. So again, the solution to unite parishes into "unions". The differences being that the CofI did respect the boundaries of the civil parishes in forming these unions, and that (pre-1871) the Viceroy authorized and changed the unions.

Finally as for the names of Catholic parishes, they were named for the location of the Church. So as the church location changed, or the head parish church was changed as between multiple churches in a large parish, so the name of the parish changed.