Harriet Ann Emms born c 1870

[Mildred298]

We have a family branch that has proven difficult to get any certainty.
As a starting point my Great Grandmother we have been unable to find her Birth Certificate whilst searching.
She was Baptised Harriet Ann Emms to parents Robert and Hannah Maria Emms at St. Thomas, Portman Square 5th November 1871. The priest had written her DOB as 10th November 1871 (after her baptism!!). So, obviously a mistake. We have looked for a birth reference for 1870 and 1869 without luck. Unfortunately the 1939 Registration year is almost illegible to confuse things.
Any help or advice to find her birth certificate reference would be appreciated. We are aware of two Robert Emms in the same part of London at the same time to confuse things.
Mildred

[CaroleW]

Do you have her on the 1881 census?   What birthplace is given?  I can’t see an 1881 or 1891 entry for her

Failure to register a birth only became a fineable offence in 1874

Any clues as to Hannah’s maiden name?  Any siblings on the 1881 census to help determine her mmn

Who did she marry - when & where?

[rosie99]

Could these be siblings though mother is giving name as Maria

Baptism at St Marylebone 02 Dec 1866 for Alice Emily Blanche Emms - parents Robert and Maria

EMMS, ROBERT  EDWARD GEORGE    mmn CROSS 
GRO Reference: 1870  Dec Quarter in MARYLEBONE  Volume 01A  Page 468
 
Henry Richard 20 Apr 1873 St Marylebone same parents
Births Mar qtr 1873 
EMMS    Henry Richard    MMN CROSS   
Marylebone    1a   525   


Marriage Dec qtr 1862   
Cross    Maria       
Emms    Robert       
Marylebone    1a   765

In 1871 this family are in Marylebone
RG10
Piece number 161
Folio 56
Page 20
Robert, Maria, Alice and Robert plus Richard father of Robert senior
..................


The other couple baptising children in London (Westminster) around the same time are Robert and Mary Ann

[ColC]

Possible marriage?

Marriages Dec 1862   
Cross    Maria        Marylebone    1a   765
Emms    Robert        Marylebone    1a   765

Colin

[rosie99]

Could these be siblings though mother is giving name as Maria

Baptism at St Marylebone 02 Dec 1866 for Alice Emily Blanche Emms - parents Robert and Maria

EMMS, ROBERT  EDWARD GEORGE    mmn CROSS 
GRO Reference: 1870  Dec Quarter in MARYLEBONE  Volume 01A  Page 468
 
Henry Richard 20 Apr 1873 St Marylebone same parents
Births Mar qtr 1873 
EMMS    Henry Richard    MMN CROSS   
Marylebone    1a   525   


Marriage Dec qtr 1862   
Cross    Maria       
Emms    Robert       
Marylebone    1a   765

In 1871 this family are in Marylebone
RG10
Piece number 161
Folio 56
Page 20
Robert, Maria, Alice and Robert plus Richard father of Robert senior
..................


The other couple baptising children in London (Westminster) around the same time are Robert and Mary Ann

I think we can probably disregard that family as in 1881 there is ne mention pf Harriet Ann Emms

[Ladyhawk]

on her baptism record father Robert occ stable man there this 1881 census entry

Address   22 Eaton Lane
Piece   101
Folio   71
Page number   18
Robert Emms 38 stableman born Norwich
Annie Emms 36 born Scotland
Annie Emms   10   Daughter Paddington
Millie H.L. Mubina 22 Lodger

Her marriage

Annie Emms Age 20 father Robert dec'd coachman
Marriage    7 Oct 1890 St. Margaret's, Westminster, London, England
Spouse   George Marshall

Added - is this the death of her mother?

EMMS, ANNIE       42 
GRO Reference: 1888  M Quarter in ST GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE  Volume 01A  Page 406

[Ladyhawk]

I'm assuming Mildred298 doesn't have the marriage of Robert and Hannah Maria as the mother's maiden name is not mentioned

This is a very long shot as this Robert is older than the one on 1881 census 

haven't found a birth reg for Harriet with this maiden name 

Will post details anyway just in case.....could parents have married after the birth of Harriet 

Robert EMMS 48 Batchelor occ Groom
Father Robert occ gardener

Maria COTHRELL 41 spinster
Father William occ Licenced Victualler
Surname signed as Cothell

Witnesses S H Copp?? & ? Nicholson

Married 20th December 1885 Parish Church St Peter’s Pimlico
Residence given for both Eaton Court
Image can be viewed on Anc*y

ROBERT (b1843), Annie (b1845) & Annie Emms (b1871) address in 1881 is Eaton Lane

There’s a baptism 1838 Intwood with Keswick, Norfolk

Robert son of Robert Emms , gardener & Maria
Abode Keswick

1841 Piece   777 Folio   4 Page number   16
Parish Keswick   
Robert Emms   45 Gardener
Maria   43
Thomas    13
Fredrick    8
Charles    5
ROBERT  3
Charles privately bpt. 1836

Robert Emms married Maria Alexander 26 Dec 1821    Lakenham, Norfolk

1851 Piece   1818 Folio   165 Page number   26
Robert Emms   55   East Carleton, gardener
Maria    52   Norwich
Harriet    27   Norwich
Frederic    18   Keswick
ROBERT 14    ditto

Not found Robert on 1861 he is not with his parents and brother Frederick in 1861

edit - there are these two birth entries for Harriet Ann COTTRELL but they have mmn

COTTRELL, HARRIET  ANN     DIXON 
GRO Reference: 1870  D Quarter in KENSINGTON  Volume 01A  Page 82
she's possible daughter of George & Mary

COTTRELL, HARRIET  ANN     MERSON 
GRO Reference: 1870  D Quarter in MARYLEBONE  Volume 01A  Page 480

[Ladyhawk]

on her baptism record father Robert occ stable man there this 1881 census entry

Address   22 Eaton Lane
Piece   101
Folio   71
Page number   18
Robert Emms 38 occ stableman born Norwich
Annie Emms 36 born Scotland
Annie Emms   10   Daughter Paddington
Millie H.L. Mubina 22 Lodger

Her marriage

Annie Emms Age 20 father Robert dec'd occ coachman
Marriage    7 Oct 1890 St. Margaret's, Westminster, London, England
Spouse   George Marshall

could parents have married after the birth of Harriet 

Robert EMMS 48 Batchelor occ Groom
Father Robert occ gardener

Maria COTHRELL 41 spinster
Father William occ Licenced Victualler
Surname signed as Cothell

Witnesses S H Copp?? & ? Nicholson

Married 20th December 1885 Parish Church St Peter’s Pimlico
Residence given for both Eaton Court
Image can be viewed on Anc*y

ROBERT (b1843), Annie (b1845) & Annie EMMS (b1871) address in 1881 is Eaton Lane

edit - there are these two birth entries for Harriet Ann COTTRELL but they have mmn

COTTRELL, HARRIET  ANN     DIXON 
GRO Reference: 1870  D Quarter in KENSINGTON  Volume 01A  Page 82
possible daughter of George & Mary

COTTRELL, HARRIET  ANN     MERSON 
GRO Reference: 1870  D Quarter in MARYLEBONE  Volume 01A  Page 480

Not sure about this 1871 census entry  Piece   167 Folio   9 Page number   11

Robert COTRILL 29   Head born Norwich occ coachman
Ann 24   Wife born Perth Scotland
Harriet A 5/12   Daughter born Marylebone

Is this the Emms family from 1881 census

For info

I think this is the other Harriet Ann Cottrell with her parents in Kensington 1871

Piece   32
Folio   100
Page number   50
George Cottrell 46   Head
Mary Cottrell   35   Wife
Hariet A Cottrell 7/12   Daughter Kensington

[Mildred298]

I'm not ignoring any of these posts. They are providing me with a lot of info to go through and analyse, some of which I know already but some info puts a new slant on this family. Thankyou everyone.
Mildred