Author Topic: Shankers Ryan and Becky Cooper  (Read 346 times)

Offline Abhanliath

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Shankers Ryan and Becky Cooper
« on: Friday 08 December 23 11:07 GMT (UK) »
John "Shankers" Ryan and Becky Cooper are described as siblings in every reference to them, but I can't find them.
John Ryan was killed by the Squad in February 1921.
https://bloodysunday.co.uk/shot-by-ira-as-spies/ryan/ryan.html
He is described as 42 years of age, but his death registration says 32.
There's some suggestion he may have been born in India.
Richard Ellmann's biography of Joyce has some material about Becky Cooper that might help to identify her:

Quote
Joyce's knowledge of Monto was of course as complete as his knowledge of the Evening Telegraph, which he used in the Aeolus episode. He does not have Bloom and Stephen patronize the lower numbers of Mecklenburg Street, near Mabbot Lane, since these were usually patronized by English 'tommies'; these houses were full of religious pictures, behind which the ladies kept 'coshes,' pieces of lead pipe, to prevent trouble.
Joyce asked one of his visitors in the 'thirties to secure a complete list of the names and addresses on Mecklenburg Strect, and seems to have retained his interest in them. A lady appropriately named Mrs. Lawless lived at No. 4; her neighbour, at No. 5, was Mrs. Hayes, a grandmotherly type. But at the upper end of the street were the principal houses.
Bloom, searching for Stephen at Mrs. Cohen's (No. 83), knocks first by mistake at No. 85, but is told that this is Mrs. Mack's house. Actually Mrs. Mack kept two houses, No. 85 and No. 90, and was so well known that the whole area was sometimes called Macktown.'
As for Mrs. Cohen, she was older than Mrs. Mack, and by 1904 had either retired or died, but Joyce restored her in business because her name suited the Jewish themes in the book. Her girls were probably modelled on contemporary prostitutes. Florry Talbot, for instance, was probably Fleury Crawford. The description of another girl, Kitty Ricketts, suggests Becky Cooper, probably the best known among Dublin prostitutes from the beginning of the century until the 'twenties. Joyce was probably familiar also with Lady Betty and May Oblong (Mrs. Roberts); he reserved the latter's name for Finnegans Wake, where all Dublin is d'Oblong.
(footnote): Becky Cooper was known for her charities as well as for her favors: young men who took her fancy were the surprised and sometimes embarrassed recipients of gifts of money and new clothes. A familiar song about her celebrated not her generosity, homerer, but her accessibility:
Italy's maids are fair to see
And France's maids are willing
But less expensive 'tis to me:
Becky's for a shilling.

Online hanes teulu

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,584
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Shankers Ryan and Becky Cooper
« Reply #1 on: Friday 08 December 23 12:37 GMT (UK) »
The newspapers refer to John and the "8th Hussars". FindMyPast has a military record of a John Ryan, Army No. 3555, occpn. grocer's porter, aged 18 yrs 4 mths, born parish of St Thomas, Dublin attesting on 7 Dec 1892 (born c.1874) for the 8th Hussars.
It mentions next of kin as Mother Elizabeth Ryan and elder sister Mary - both of 27 Mabbot Street.

He was discharged 1899 - cannot find a WWI record.

The papers give John Ryan's age as 48 in 1921 - born c.1873. I note the actual image of his death cert is not viewable - only the transcript which mentions age 32. I did note that the owner of the licensed premises mentions having known him 25 years.
Have spotted 2 newspaper reports (1913/14) where he is mentioned gambling on the street. One mentions 16 Railway Street, the other just Railway Street.

All the places mentioned - Railway Street, Mabbot Street, Gloucester Place - appear to fall in St Thomas Parish (tho, no expert on Dublin geography!!)


Offline Maggsie

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,633
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Shankers Ryan and Becky Cooper
« Reply #2 on: Friday 08 December 23 13:07 GMT (UK) »
His Army number
Soldier (L/Cpl 7681746)

Online hanes teulu

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,584
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Shankers Ryan and Becky Cooper
« Reply #3 on: Friday 08 December 23 14:32 GMT (UK) »
A death notice on FindMyPast names spouse as "B. Ryan". The marriage certificate can be viewed at Irish Genealogy.
He married 21 Mar 1914, Marlboro St Cathedral, North Dublin district -
John Ryan, full age, bachelor, labourer, address 16 Railway St, father James Ryan, labourer
Bridget Graydon, full age, spinster, no occpn listed, address 16 Railway St, father John Graydon, occpn not listed.
 


Online hanes teulu

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,584
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Shankers Ryan and Becky Cooper
« Reply #4 on: Friday 08 December 23 14:43 GMT (UK) »
There's a birth registration (available at Irish-gen) of a -
Bridget Graydon, born 3 Mar 1884, address 109 Lr Dorset St, father John Graydon, postman, mother Bridget Graydon - maiden name Maguire.

Offline Abhanliath

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Shankers Ryan and Becky Cooper
« Reply #5 on: Friday 08 December 23 15:25 GMT (UK) »
A Railway Street near Mabbot Street doesn't seem to exist in the 1901 or 1911 census. 1901 has a Railway Street in Balbriggan and a Railway Road in Dalkey, and 1911 just has the Dalkey one and no Railway Street at all.

Offline Abhanliath

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Shankers Ryan and Becky Cooper
« Reply #6 on: Friday 08 December 23 15:54 GMT (UK) »
And what I'm really curious is his relationship with Becky Cooper. I could only find one census entry with both Ryan and Cooper in the same area:
https://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_Dock/Lr__Tyrone_Street/1276089/

Ryan   Mary/30/Female/Head of Family/R C/Dublin/General Servant/Read and write/Not Married
Cooper Susan/18/Female/Sister/R C/Dublin/-/Read only/Not Married   

There's a Susan Cooper born in 17 Montgomery Street in 1883, parents painter John Cooper and Elizabeth, formerly Brooks.

Online hanes teulu

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,584
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Shankers Ryan and Becky Cooper
« Reply #7 on: Friday 08 December 23 16:14 GMT (UK) »
 16 Railway Terrace
Hadn't found it via Census and have been searching for reference points eg " ... corner of Railway Street and Gloucester Place ...".

Online hanes teulu

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,584
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Shankers Ryan and Becky Cooper
« Reply #8 on: Friday 08 December 23 16:30 GMT (UK) »
Looking at old maps (Geohive), Railway Street may have previously been called Mecklenburg Street and Mabbot Street ran off Mecklenburg Street as an extension of Gloucester Place Lower.

Another map shows Railway Street as Lower Tyrone Street.