Author Topic: Latin Motto Willoughby Plaque West Knoyle Church  (Read 363 times)

Offline Designer Jeans

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Latin Motto Willoughby Plaque West Knoyle Church
« on: Friday 15 December 23 13:44 GMT (UK) »

What does the motto ‘QUI INVIDET MINOR EST FUIMUS’ mean please.  As I understand it, all but the last word is a recognised motto adopted by various aristocratic families in the past meaning 'He who envies is inferior'.  The final word means 'we have been' or 'we were', but this doesn't really make sense when added to the rest of the phrase 'He who envies is the lesser we were'?

Help and suggestions much appreciated.




Derbys: Ward, Hopkinson, Bradley, Birds, Clarke, Taylor, Daykin, Gent, Vardy, Cotterill, Stocks, Godber, Dronfield, Charlesworth, Bonsall, Purseglove
Notts: Clarke, Freeman, Kitchen, Allcock, Housley, Swanwick, Berrisford, Farnsworth, Antcliffe
Staffs: Nutt, Bowring
Yorks: Holling, Fish, Kay, Hardy
Lincs: Plummer, Broughton, Wellbourne

Offline Watson

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Re: Latin Motto Willoughby Plaque West Knoyle Church
« Reply #1 on: Friday 15 December 23 15:50 GMT (UK) »
Interesting. Has it come from a book?

I found the same motto in The Monumental Inscriptions of S. Mary, Lewisham (page 70).

I wonder if it can be rendered as: He who envies what we were is inferior.

Offline Designer Jeans

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Re: Latin Motto Willoughby Plaque West Knoyle Church
« Reply #2 on: Friday 15 December 23 16:48 GMT (UK) »
It is from a plaque commemorating Richard Willoughby (1740-1741) in the church at West Knoyle, Wiltshire. 

Yes, that might make sense

Derbys: Ward, Hopkinson, Bradley, Birds, Clarke, Taylor, Daykin, Gent, Vardy, Cotterill, Stocks, Godber, Dronfield, Charlesworth, Bonsall, Purseglove
Notts: Clarke, Freeman, Kitchen, Allcock, Housley, Swanwick, Berrisford, Farnsworth, Antcliffe
Staffs: Nutt, Bowring
Yorks: Holling, Fish, Kay, Hardy
Lincs: Plummer, Broughton, Wellbourne

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Latin Motto Willoughby Plaque West Knoyle Church
« Reply #3 on: Friday 15 December 23 17:17 GMT (UK) »
I would suggest that they are two separate mottos.

Qui invidet minor est.
Fuimus.


It would be interesting to see exactly how the words are/were arranged on the monument at West Knoyle.

Fuimus is the motto of Clan Bruce, meaning (as you say) ‘We Have Been’. So is there perhaps a connection between the Willoughby family and Clan Bruce? Just a suggestion, but it may be worth investigating, especially as there is another Willoughby example at Lewisham (found by Watson).


Offline Designer Jeans

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Re: Latin Motto Willoughby Plaque West Knoyle Church
« Reply #4 on: Friday 15 December 23 17:26 GMT (UK) »
Plaque at West Knoyle, apologies for poor quality, only one I have
Derbys: Ward, Hopkinson, Bradley, Birds, Clarke, Taylor, Daykin, Gent, Vardy, Cotterill, Stocks, Godber, Dronfield, Charlesworth, Bonsall, Purseglove
Notts: Clarke, Freeman, Kitchen, Allcock, Housley, Swanwick, Berrisford, Farnsworth, Antcliffe
Staffs: Nutt, Bowring
Yorks: Holling, Fish, Kay, Hardy
Lincs: Plummer, Broughton, Wellbourne

Offline Watson

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Re: Latin Motto Willoughby Plaque West Knoyle Church
« Reply #5 on: Friday 15 December 23 17:45 GMT (UK) »
In the Lewisham example which I cited above, there's no sign of a break or capital letter such as might suggest two different mottoes:

"Qui invidet minor est fuimus"

Grammatically, it could do with another pronoun (qui) before fuimus, but one could argue that a second qui in six words would have detracted from its elegance.

The idea of "what we were" which I suggested above is consistent with the sentiment of a memorial inscription.

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Latin Motto Willoughby Plaque West Knoyle Church
« Reply #6 on: Friday 15 December 23 17:51 GMT (UK) »
Plaque at West Knoyle, apologies for poor quality, only one I have

Thanks for posting the image. Though it can't be inferred from what is shown, I do think it more likely that they are two separate phrases.

An online search of Fairbairn reveals that other families, apart from Bruce, also favoured the one-word motto Fuimus (which some suggest might be translated as ‘We Have Endured’.)
https://archive.org/details/fairbairnsbookof01fair/page/n5/mode/2up

Offline Watson

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Re: Latin Motto Willoughby Plaque West Knoyle Church
« Reply #7 on: Friday 15 December 23 18:22 GMT (UK) »
In the West Knoyle illustration, is that a full stop just to the right of the "T" in "EST"?

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Latin Motto Willoughby Plaque West Knoyle Church
« Reply #8 on: Friday 15 December 23 18:25 GMT (UK) »
In the West Knoyle illustration, is that a full stop just to the right of the "T" in "EST"?

I considered that but thought it was probably a 'blob' in the image. Maybe DesignerJeans has a better view than ours?