1878 sinking of SMS Grosser Kurfürst off Folkestone, Kent

[jonwicken]

Hi I am interested in the crew that died and the crew that survived of the warship Grosser Kurfurst, after it sunk on 31 May 1878.

The ship has its own wikipedia page here which outlines the disaster:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Grosser_Kurf%C3%BCrst_(1875)

Apparently 200 people died and apparently about 180 survived, but the full names and lives of these men have been forgotten.

There is a partial crew list here: https://www.coastalheritage.org.uk/GrosserKurfurst.htm

The Friends of Folkestone Cemetery where many of the men are buried have also created a virtual cemetery here with the names in the burial registers: https://www.findagrave.com/virtual-cemetery/1154337

It seems the two lists do not quite match up and I am looking for help on where to find a list and service records of the dead and surviving men.

I know from the British Newspaper Article that the body of Count Liverrin was found and taken back to Germany in June 1878.

British Newspaper Archive articles state that the body of the boat's commander Count Liverrin was found and taken back to Germany in June 1878. I have no idea who this man was and where he was buried.

Ancestry.com trees also have Ernst Gottlieb Messtorff (1855–1878) and Johann Gerhard Popken (1848-1878) dying in the sinking, but they are not buried in Folkestone, or on the lists above.

There is a large monument which was erected in Folkestone Cemetery in 1880 which still survives.

Wikipedia also states that "Another monument was placed in front of the barracks of I. Seebataillon to memorialize the naval infantry who had died in the sinking."

Can anyone also please tell me where these barracks were and help me find out if it survives, or an illustration of it?

Any help or guidance on all this would be appreciated as I have no idea about German military records.

Thank you,
Jon

[GrahamSimons]

Have you contacted the Bundesarchiv? It seems from their website that German naval records have survived better than army or navy.
https://www.bundesarchiv.de/EN/Navigation/Use/Using-specific-types/Military-Records/military-records-en.html

[hanes teulu]

I think this is an early list (2 Jun) of those "missing" (werden vermisst) and saved (gerettet)?
https://www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de/newspaper/item/7C4DLYAUXTXY2NH544HX6HLZMZHEAMFY?query=popken&lang=de&fromDay=4&fromMonth=6&fromYear=1878&toDay=4&toMonth=6&toYear=1878&hit=2&issuepage=16

Added -=
Checked screen delivered - you will need to scroll left to column 2

[hanes teulu]

List saved (geretteten) col 1 -

https://www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de/newspaper/item/MJ77QI2SZVHKND5RFS5TNFZHNG6PNBRD?query=langbein&lang=de&fromDay=1&fromMonth=6&fromYear=1878&toDay=1&toMonth=6&toYear=1879&page=1&hit=14&issuepage=2

[jonwicken]

Thanks so very much for these replies!

I have emailed the archives and I can't believe the list found with the missing and the rescued!

I really can't believe this list which gives me the names of the men.

It was made on 1 June 1878 and says that some men may still be being rescued, but it provides a pretty definitive list.

If the navy service records survive, the 274 missing and the 217 rescued, totalling 491 people, may be able to step out of the past and become real known people again. Let's see what can be found out!

Thank you,
Jon

[hanes teulu]

I noted both "Stoker Messtorf" and "Steward Pop(p)ken" amongst the missing. Fingers crossed the archives will add to the details of the 491 listed.

Keep us posted.

[jonwicken]

I noted both "Stoker Messtorf" and "Steward Pop(p)ken" amongst the missing. Fingers crossed the archives will add to the details of the 491 listed.

Keep us posted.

It was an amazing find! Thanks so much. Had no idea about that German online archive.

I have now extracted all the names of the crew into a spreadsheet and will be seeing what else I can find out!

I have now realised that there are four survivors names at the end of the list whose names did not tally with the crew list and are actually believed to be mispellings of four of the missing.

So therefore it is not actually 274 that were missing when they list was made, but 270.

270 missing and 217 rescued, so 487 men were on board.

The notes with the missing and rescued list, that was made the day after the sinking on 1 June, states that maybe others could have been rescued, so hopefully I will be able to find this out.

But for now as I said, we have 270 dead and 217 survivors. 4 survivors names do not match the names of the missing, which was suspected to be an error when the message was sent by telegraph.

I have had a message back from someone on ancestry who has Messtorf in their tree, that he was commemorated in his father's grave.

He also has sent me this link with a photo of two other monuments.

One is a  outside stone monement with names on:

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/2021/vl_panzerfregatte-grosser-kurfuerst-1875.html

The other is a wooden internal monument:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Pauluskirche_%28Kiel%29_Gedenktafel-msu-2023-0I9A-9681-.jpg/1024px-Pauluskirche_%28Kiel%29_Gedenktafel-msu-2023-0I9A-9681-.jpg?uselang=de

I am not aure where they are, if they still survive and if they are the names of men in different units.

I need to take a closer look, but if you have any ideas I would love to hear them.

Thanks again,
Jon

[hanes teulu]

Thanks for the opportunity to go chasing German records - in spite of the Gothic script!
You've certainly been busy since this kicked off. I haven't had time to broaden the search this end (Xmas interferes with everything) but will be on the case later.

But so impressed that the incident occurred on 31 May and details were in the public domain within hours.