Who is Catherine Sutherland married George Geddes 1812 then Donald Stuart 1827

[Lotsoflinks]

I would be grateful for help in identifying the parents of Catherine Sutherland of Fordyce, Bannfshire probably born 1792-1794, died 1830-1841.

Catherine (Cath.) Sutherland married George Geddes on 6 December 1812 in parish of Fordyce, Banffshire. Both were listed on marriage register as of Fordyce parish.
Catherine Sutherland and George Geddes had 7 children, all baptised in Sandend, Fordyce with the last child born after the death of George Geddes.
The children were Margaret Geddes, Jean Geddes, Ann Geddes, Catherine Geddes, George Geddes, Isabel Geddes and John Duncan Geddes.

Catherine Sutherland then married Donald Stuart on 12 July 1827 again in parish of Fordyce, Bannshire. Both were listed on marriage register as of Fordyce parish.
Catherine Sutherland and Donald Stuart had 2 children, Daniel Stuart born circa 1828 (no baptism record has been found) and Alexander Stuart baptised 4 July 1830 in Sandend.
Alexander Stuart is my ancestor.

Despite all the numerous entries in the parish registers I have still not managed to identify the parents and therefore ancestry of Catherine Sutherland.

From all the evidence, I think that Catherine must have been born around 1792-1794 (estimated age at first marriage and birth of first child), and died 1830-1841 (after birth of last child and before census 1841).
Catherine Sutherland doesn't appear in any census information, so there is no information on her place or date of birth. Both her marriages were in parish of Fordyce, Banffshire, and both recorded her as belonging to parish of Fordyce.
The parish records show that there were a number of other Sutherland families also living in Fordyce parish at the time.
Some Sutherlands are also listed as witnesses in the baptisms of the Catherine's children. However, despite all these tantalising details - and other pattern matching attempts - I have not yet managed to find a baptism record for Catherine on ScotlandsPeople in Fordyce nor have I managed to find any other evidence to confirm who her parents were.

I'm hoping that perhaps another descendent of Catherine Sutherland might have some family information which will help solve this mystery.

[Fordyce]

Welcome to RootsChat!

You seem to have got to grips with this family but were you aware that they also appear in the Catholic records?  A "Census of the Congregation" or "Status Animarum" for The Annunciation RC church in Portsoy in 1822 lists their family's birth and baptism dates - and every baptism date significantly differs from those in the Fordyce OPR - see Scotlands People's RC records under 'Other Events'. I have therefore concluded they were baptised twice. Isabella's later 1823 baptism is in the Annunciation records too - under RC Baptisms.

My 3xgtgdfather John Geddes was the Clerk at that time at The Annunciation. So both families would have known each other and both families turn up in RC and Established Church records to various extents (indeed he's probably the witness to your Catherine Geddes in 1819). His family is listed in like manner to yours. His daughters are also listed in the "Confermandi" records as being confirmed at Banff 15-11-1819 but yours aren't.

A new chapel was opened 13-12-1829. John Geddes was a subscriber and well as an Alexander Geddes; I don't see your family in the List of Subscribers. Subscriptions were opened in 1828 by which time it would have been under the Stuart surname.

Finding where my John Geddes came from has been a right trial, probably sucessful due to my identification of fellow subscriber Alexander Geddes, but I have failed abysmally to establish a connection to your George Geddes (who is variously described by his children as a general labourer, a feuar, a farm overseer, an agricultural labourer - and maybe there are other job descriptions you know of).

Maybe the Catholic records will throw up something that helps identify Catherine Sutherland (I see that another Catherine Sutherland was in the Preshome congregation and an 1807 death for someone of that name is recorded there [just saying!]).

Lastly my own prediction of her birth is 1790 (1812-22=1790 : 1730-40=1790) which is close to yours. Maybe you can build a picture of all Sutherlands known to be in Sandend and see where there are gaps your Catherine might fit? And a shufti at the Kirk Session around 1790 might establish whether she was illeg and escaped baptism.

If you've got any insight on the Geddes side I'd be interested. Happy hunting!

[ColC]

GEORGE GEDDES   MARRIED   CATH. SUTHERLAND   06/12/1812   FORDYCE

Youngest son of Catherine
GEDDES   JOHN DUNCAN   GEORGE GEDDES/CATHERINE SUTHERLAND   17/01/1826   FORDYCE

DONALD STUART   MARRIED   CATHERINE SUTHERLAND   12/07/1827   FORDYCE

I note on SP there is a gap in the death records at Fordyce 1808-1837

Have you considered the birth/baptism below?
Although somewhat distant form Fordyce, the parents names almost fit the naming pattern?
Have you found a record for George?

SUTHERLAND   CATHARINE   JOHN SUTHERLAND/JEAN LAING   18/01/1784   ELGIN

Fordyce, Banffshire is 23 miles E of Elgin, Morayshire.

Colin

[ColC]

The 1784 record I posted may be incorrect, it looks likely that Catherine married in Moray and they had several children in the County.

CATHERINE SUTHERLAND   MARRIED    ROBERT NICOL   17/07/1807   ELGIN

Colin

[Forfarian]

GEDDES   JOHN DUNCAN   GEORGE GEDDES/CATHERINE SUTHERLAND   17/01/1826   FORDYCE
DONALD STUART   MARRIED   CATHERINE SUTHERLAND   12/07/1827   FORDYCE

So she married less than six months after the baptism of her youngest child?

Do you have independent evidence to prove for certain that it's the same Catherine Sutherland?

[Lotsoflinks]

Hi Forfarian,

Thank you for your question. Quite honestly, I stumbled on Catherine Sutherland's 1st marriage by accident. I was looking for my ancestor Alexander Stuart, who I understood had come from Banffshire. I finally found him in the census of 1841, with his father Donald Stuart and older brother Daniel. The parish baptism and other records confirmed the name of his mother as Catherine Sutherland.

What puzzled me was the presence of children (Jane, George and Isabella) with the surname Geddes who appeared on the same 1841 census record with father Donald Stuart and sons Alexander and Daniel. The Geddes children, who were older, seemed to be part of the household. The parish marriage records later confirmed the first marriage between Catherine and George Geddes and also baptisms of these children, whose ages also matched those in the 1841 census.

My family always seemed to believe that the Stuart branch had originated in Banffshire, but it has now become clear that Donald Stuart (born 1800) in fact moved from Rosshire with his brother Alexander Stuart (born 1802). Donald was probably 8+ years younger than his wife Catherine Sutherland.

[Fordyce]

GEDDES   JOHN DUNCAN   GEORGE GEDDES/CATHERINE SUTHERLAND   17/01/1826   FORDYCE
DONALD STUART   MARRIED   CATHERINE SUTHERLAND   12/07/1827   FORDYCE

So she married less than six months after the baptism of her youngest child?

Do you have independent evidence to prove for certain that it's the same Catherine Sutherland?

I do! I believe this is sufficient to put it beyond reasonable doubt.
FreeCEN Piece: SCT1841/153 Place: Fordyce ED: 1 Folio: 1 Page: 1   Address: Sandend
 STEWART    Donald    M    40       n    Ag Labourer
 GEDDES       Jane    F    20 [26]   y    
 GEDDES       George       M    18 [19]   y    Ag Labourer
 GEDDES       Isabella    F    15 [17]    y
 STEWART    Daniel    M    13 [?]   y
 STEWART    Alexander    M    10 [10]   y
Actual ages in [] based on OPR baptism dates.
No baptism record found for Daniel.

Re John Duncan, the OPR explicitly records "George Geddes lately in Sandend had a pothumous Child by his wife Catherine Sutherland...". Inexplicably the OPR baptism dates for earlier children are roughly a year later than the Catholic baptism dates. George is 2 years later. Isabella is but 2 days later!

I'm looking a bit more keenly at this family group now. A witness in the OPR for Isabel Geddes is David Badenoch - he is another member of the Annunciation, son of James Badenoch & Ann Scott. He [James Badenoch] was a blacksmith in Deep of Findlater, but came from Rathven where he has an MI with his wife's MI in Fordyce. He is son of James Badenoch & Jean Davidson who moved from Rannachy Rathven to Kilnhillock Fordyce and whose dau Janet Badenoch married an unidentified James Geddes in Kilnhillock. And James Badenoch h/o Jean Davidson has close connections with Badenochs from Cowfurrach, Bellie and Geddeses from Farnachtie, Rathven which latter locality is exacly where I have decided the parents of my John Geddes were born. I believe I have a coherent and defendable family group of William Geddes & Jean Raich which is quite likely to include a George Geddes but whether he's the h/o Catherine Sutherland or, as I have it at present, h/o Ann Mavor I don't know.

None of this is perhaps much help for the OP but it's helping me by throwing some light on the origins of these Kilnhillock Geddes/Badenochs.

[Forfarian]

I'm convinced! It just seemed a bit odd

[Lotsoflinks]

Hello Fordyce,

Thank you for both your posts in response to my question about the parents of Catherine Sutherland. I had no idea about Catherine Sutherland's connection with the Catholic Church until your reply. I've now managed to find the reference on Scotlands People thanks to you, though I would not have thought of looking in those church records without your assistance.

I have now also done a quick look at the Kirk records around 1790 but so far have not found anything further on Catherine's birth. When I have more time I will try to look through the Kirk records from Fordyce much more carefully, if possible over Catherine's life time. There is so much information associated with Catherine Sutherland that surely her parents will become evident in the end. If I come across any further information on George Geddes I will get back in touch as well.