Im at a crossroads perhaps dead end and need help

[jlbriggs]

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=879465.new;topicseen#new

I posted above in Manchester forum and got lots of great help and now my search has moved to Scotland and this same person CLARENCE STEPHEN(S) is really causing me problems so reaching out for help

So its been established that Clarence Dalgetty Stephens b1867 and Fanny Henfrey had an illegitimate son (clarence Dalgetty Stephens in 1895 who died same year)
Clarence was also in prison in 1894 in Glasgow and I have found him in 1894-95 in Aberdeen (wellington Terrace) as a traveller so all good.

I can not find any entries for him prior to that date but I have found a "charles" D Stephen (says born Aberdeen on the 1891 census) married to Maggie C with a son Victor CD Stephen b1890

Ive traced Victors war records and see he is Victor Dalgetty Stephen and also in 1915 WW1 records states both his parents Margaret & Charles are deceased)  but can not find a death for Charles only Maggie

I think this is Maggie C S Stephen Stephen
Death Date:   19 Jun 1898
Cemetery:   Arbroath Eastern Cemetery
Burial or Cremation Place:   Arbroath, Angus, Scotland
Has Bio?:   N

Victor also a boarder in 1901 living in Aberdeen (says born in Edinburgh) So Charles is definitely Charles Dalgetty Stephens and the ONLY Dalgetty stephens b1865.  I thought perhaps he was his brother but checking back to 1881

Charles Stephen 41   Head
Elizabeth Stephen 40   Wife
Charles Stephen   16   Son
Jemima V Stephen 13   Daughter
James V Stephen 11   Son
John S V Stephen 7   Son
James Holland 21   Lodger
Thomas Holland 20   Lodger

But can not find any Clarence who if he is a brother would be 13-14
Also cant find any other trace Pre 1894 nor can I find any trace of Charles post 1891 so wondering if they are the same person as Clarence (and Fanny on the link) have changed their names several times and in 1903 clarence newsarticle said he has an alias of John watson.

Looks like Fanny came back from india in 1886 with her parents and had a baby with clarence in 1895 then Fanny pops up in Manchester in 1901 (has more children with him as father) so Im trying to find any connection to rule in or out that charles and Clarence are (or not) the same person, maybe he ran off with Fanny and changed his name to his dead sons name?

thanks

[Millmoor]

Looking at Scotland's People  I  note the following:

There is a death record for Margaret Cant S Stephen in Arbroath in 1898 which would appear to be a match with the cemetery record quoted but the age is 0 years.

A birth for Victor Charles Stephen in Newington RD Edinburgh in 1889. Mother's maiden name is showing as Patson but wonder if this is an incorrect transcription of Polson ( see below).

There is a marriage of a Charles Dalgety Stephen and a Maggie Cooper Stephen in Aberdeen Old Machar in 1886.

There is a death for a Margaret Cooper Stephen ( other surname Polson) age 46 in 1913 in St Nicholas, Aberdeen.

William

[Millmoor]

The Scottish Indexes website has a Prison Register Index. There is an entry for Clarence Dalgetty Stephen in 1894. This gives his age as 27 and place of birth as Dundee.

https://www.scottishindexes.com/prisontranscript.aspx?prisonid=490900339

William

[ciderdrinker]

Good Afternoon
Could this be him 1901?
Lambeth 147 Stamford St near Waterloo Road
Clarence  D Stephen married 34 boarder ?ting  contractor (it's over written with Book and a big cross) employer Scotland .

And a possible death 1909
Clarence Stephens June 1909 Chorlton age 42 with a burial at the Southern Cemetery 5.4.1909.

Ciderdrinker

[ciderdrinker]

WoW

Just found this
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3629416/3629418/6/%22clarence%20stephens%22
Rhyl Journal 28 Sep 1907
Clarence Stephens called Succi the Fasting man and wife Frances sued by Frank Eich .They are performing at the Worlds Fair.She has a permanent address in Manchester. Professional name for her Lady Melodee.He was previously an Advertising Contractor.

Very wierd Act,but it looks like them.

Ciderdrinker

[jlbriggs]

hi - Yes on the link right at the top of my the opening post these were mentioned as the fasting act and in Lambeth in 1901 - They must be the same people as theres another article about Lady melodee being daughter of an army officer in India (she was born in india to an army officer) Did a little research on the "succi" act and apparently there was a few of them in US and UK all doing the same thing - Yes quite weird but it was interesting.  He was also in trouble in 1903 and jailed a month so these 2 are a right pair

I have the 1909 death as a possibility but my main issue is that my grandad was down in 1912 (with Clarence as his father) and his sister in 1916 so either they were to a different man and she just kept putting Clarence down as the father or its not him. She is recorded as a widow in 1911 census so something isnt right and maybe Ill never know.

I do have him traced now as definitely Clarence Dalgetty Stephen back to 1893 and a Charles Dalgettly before 1891 Cant find them together (or charles after 1891) which is why Im thinking they are the same person as hes changed his name.   Dalgetty Stephen is so unsual for them both to be born in scotland and in Aberdeen area around 1891-94 and not be related (or same person)

[ciderdrinker]

Yes
Looking at it,it does seem Clarence Dalgetty and Charles Dalgetty Stephens are the same man.
But how can he be having children after his death ? If the 1911 census is right ,then either there was some kind of insurance fraud which seems unlikely or as you say there must be another man.
And the fact she has several children would seem to me to suggest they all had the same father and there was a long term relationship .

Ciderdrinker

[jlbriggs]

thats my quandry, either she lied about being widowed or lied about him being the father. 

[jlbriggs]

on my fathers school records in 1918 next of kin is "harry" so maybe he got a new name avoiding the law 😄🤔