Advice or Suggestions Welcomed

[DianaCanada]

I have had a brick wall for decades - this involves my direct paternal line.  My 3Great-grandfather Joseph Hibbert was born in Lancashire ca 1799 and lived, at least from around 1820 in the Manchester area, including Salford and Hulme.  His birthplace on the 1851 is not readable, although it might begin with an S.  He died in 1852 after fathering 12 children by two wives.  Four died as infants, three I have not been able to trace, and the most prolific line was his eldest son, my ancestor, and I have a good number of DNA matches to descendants, but they stop at William, as far as I can identify.

I do have (as my brother does) 4 matches to Ancestry testers at about the 7 or 8 CM mark.  As they are all descended from the same couple (from what I can deduct this couple immigrated to Utah and were likely Mormons) from Manchester.  Being as the CM is low, normally I would have not taken it too seriously, but with four of them having the same ancestor couple, it makes me wonder if that Hibbert is related to my Joseph.  He was of an age to likely have been a nephew or a cousin.
In fact, one of the matches has no other British Isles lines, according to his tree.

Opinions wanted!  Is this a likely match (James and Joseph) in some way? 

[Biggles50]

They could be!

If these have a BMD/census/immigration etc trail from Manchester that satisfy’s you then it is reasonable to conclude the link.

Even better if they are Ancestry Thrulines where each person in the linkage has been verified.

My Wife’s family hail from Manchester and at the time we produced her tree we did find that Lan OPC records were better than those on Ancestry.  Of course we also went into Manchester Library and searched the microfische system which helped fill in some blanks.

You may like to contact Manchester Family History Society with a view to joining them and hopefully a member could look at the records for you that are not yet digitised and transcribed.

[DianaCanada]

Thank you for the suggestion, Biggles50.  Over the years I have checked every source that I could think of.  Maybe there is something that hasn’t been published yet.  There are many Hibberts around Manchester and into Cheshire and Derbyshire so it's difficult going through them all and still not finding a Joseph baptism of the right age.  I have used the OPC over the years for my Lancashire folk, which make up close to half of my ancestors.
It is possible he is the Joseph that married Ann Riding but I can’t prove that either!

[Ili1133]

I agree with Biggles50 it’s likely. We certainly have DNA matches at the same level to a group with a common family name who emigrated to North America from Hull in the 1830s and have managed to establish the link. The BMD records were comparable and the clincher in our case was finding the family on immigration records.

If you haven’t already done it, my advice would be where you can to work carefully up the line in your matches’ tree(s) checking the dates against any BMD evidence in the US. Often people use census data alone, which is less reliable as it gives ages rather than calendar years. That might help identify Joseph/James more closely. Also, have the four trees been developed independently or have they ‘cut and paste’ from one another’s? Do you think they are closely related (e.g. brothers and sisters/parent and child) and tested as a joint project? If so, it would be a good idea to develop your own private tree for the direct line, ignoring (or at least not uncritically accepting) any hints once you get back beyond grandparents.

Lan OPC are still adding records so worth checking back.

[arthurk]

I have had a brick wall for decades - this involves my direct paternal line.  My 3Great-grandfather Joseph Hibbert was born in Lancashire ca 1799 and lived, at least from around 1820 in the Manchester area, including Salford and Hulme.  His birthplace on the 1851 is not readable, although it might begin with an S....

Do you have a place/address or reference for the 1851 census, please, or preferably both? I've just looked for him and found a few with legible birthplaces, though none were in Salford or Hulme.

[DianaCanada]

I have had a brick wall for decades - this involves my direct paternal line.  My 3Great-grandfather Joseph Hibbert was born in Lancashire ca 1799 and lived, at least from around 1820 in the Manchester area, including Salford and Hulme.  His birthplace on the 1851 is not readable, although it might begin with an S....

Do you have a place/address or reference for the 1851 census, please, or preferably both? I've just looked for him and found a few with legible birthplaces, though none were in Salford or Hulme.

He’s at 6 Thomas St., Salford.  Ancestry lists his birthplace as Somerset in their index, but that is highly unlikely.  1841 says born in county.

[arthurk]

I have had a brick wall for decades - this involves my direct paternal line.  My 3Great-grandfather Joseph Hibbert was born in Lancashire ca 1799 and lived, at least from around 1820 in the Manchester area, including Salford and Hulme.  His birthplace on the 1851 is not readable, although it might begin with an S....

Do you have a place/address or reference for the 1851 census, please, or preferably both? I've just looked for him and found a few with legible birthplaces, though none were in Salford or Hulme.

He’s at 6 Thomas St., Salford.  Ancestry lists his birthplace as Somerset in their index, but that is highly unlikely.  1841 says born in county.

Thanks - I see it's one of the damaged pages, and it doesn't seem to be on the first site I looked at. Anyway, I've now seen it, and I agree, it's more or less impossible to read. But if the enumerator was consistent with the town-county order for birthplaces, then it's more likely a town than a county.

Looking for the two youngest children in the GRO index I've come up with a possible mother's maiden surname of Clare. Does that help at all?

[DianaCanada]

Thank you.  Yes, I have information on Ellen Clare, their marriage, most of the children, her second marriage, and her death.  Pretty sure she was the daughter of Henry Clare of Warrington (definitely a Henry, according to second marriage).  Her second marriage was to Richard Hawthornthwaite but I cannot find them or her three youngest children (George, Mary Jane, and Joseph Hibbert) in the 1861 census.  Richard is a bit elusive too, re his death.
I have just sent for a marriage record for a George Hibbert to a Mary White who appears later in censuses b. Salford, an umbrella maker.  Not holding out a lot of hope, as he would have been very young on the marriage, but no evidence of who he is otherwise.  (There was a George b. Salford in the army, but he is likely the one who ended up E. Yorkshire, his marriage record did not give Joseph as his father.)

I haven't found Mary Jane after 1851, and no baptism.  Joseph was born not long before his father died but no joy there either, except for a baptism.

[DianaCanada]

Error above.  Believe I did find Richard Hawthornthwaite on the 1871 in Rusholme, Lancs.; it appears he is living with his daughter from an earlier relationship.  Elizabeth Watson was a witness to his marriage to Ellen Clare and she later married George Thorp.  In 1871 Richard is listed as "father-in-law" (could mean stepfather too) and his occupation matches the one on his marriage to Ellen.  He is listed as married.