The enigma surrounding the origins of William John DEMPSEY (1900-1961)

[TreeDigger]

Hi all,

Not sure whether to post this under USA, UK/Ireland, England/Lancashire or even Military, so I'll start here. In a quest to fit as many 'close' DNA matches into my tree as possible (and hopefully help others who can't see their tree for the woods), I've come across two that continue to elude me. Both are grandchildren of William John Dempsey (1900-1961) and his second wife Alma Denton (1905-1965), and though one match is a mere 27cM, their 1st cousin matches me with 132cM, indicating a familial link within the past 4 generations. And the only logical conclusion after tracing back Alma Denton's family is that the Dempsey line is the common denominator.

However, William seems loath to give up his origins, and so far none of the relatives I've contacted has gotten back to me.

In every US census for Freeport/Roosevelt in Hampstead, NY William states he was born in Ireland. However, on his WW-II draft card he very clearly states he was born 30 June 1900 in Liverpool, England. Also of note is that he has a bayonet scar underneath his heart, and one of his children has told a story on a genealogy forum about their father having numerous vaccination scars from his 'service in the British army during WW-I'.

Finally, several relatives mention his parents (without sources, so presumably based on family stories) in their online family trees: Thomas J. Dempsey and Agnis Prince. And even though the above mentioned family trees state Agnis was born in Scotland (I can't trace either her or her husband) that last name ties directly into the mutual matches with William's grandchildren, i.e. my Liverpool Prince relatives & ancestors.

My great-grandmother Frances Prince (1868-1959) had a sister named Agnes Prince (1872-1940) who married Thomas Foster (1867-1918) and had a son named William (1898-1988) who happened to emigrate to the USA. However, this is not the same individual, and there are a total of 7 half-/siblings to choose from as William's parents. I suspect William either changed his name in the US (arriving there ca. 1923 according to the 1925 NY census) or was a 'whoops' baby and given up for adoption. Remarkably his daughter's name (Carol Ann, d. 2010) closely resembles that of both Frances and Agnes' grandmother, Caroline Godfrey.

It's quite possible the coincidences render me unable to cast a wider net in finding William, but the DNA clearly states one of his grandchildren is my (half) 2nd or 3rd cousin. And I would love to find out whether William Dempsey does, indeed, belong to the Prince family.

TD

[brigidmac]

Regarding the DNA discrepancy I would think that the lower level cousin might only be a half cousin to their cousin whether they know it or not

Have you looked at the ethnicities of these matches the Irish amounts may be higher for one of them

[TreeDigger]

Oh, you smart cookie! See? I said I was too close to notice things!

OK, there's actually a total of 3 matches I can trace back to William John Dempsey, two of which (1 & 2) through two of his three children. No. 3 has no public tree.
1. Granddaughter, 132cM across 9 segments; 24% Welsh, no Irish!
2. Grandson, 27cM across 3 segments; 13% Welsh, 14% Irish
3. Presumably great-grandson, 12cM across 1 segment; 17% Welsh, 9% Irish

I have 17% Welsh and no Irish; mentioning this because that's the Prince family's origin: Flintshire/Denbigshire in Wales.

No. 1 is a shared match with 2 but not 3.
No. 2 is a shared match with 1 but not 3.
No. 3 is a shared match with both 1 and 2 (go figure..)
All three however match with my Prince relatives/descendants. So the significance of no. 1 not having any Irish may actually confirm Dempsey himself not being Irish at all, and the other two having inherited that through their other (grand-)parent. Doesn't the Liverpool accent resemble Irish? Dempsey may have (ab)used that in the US to muddle his origins.

[Dundee]

Before making up elaborate stories about William's background some really basic research can be done. New York marriage certificates from 1928 name both parents of the bride and groom.  I can see no evidence that any of the people with family trees on Ancestry have actually purchased that certificate.  They have all however linked him to a UK service record from 1898 so that shows the quality of their research.

Debra 

[brigidmac]

Also you have to check if any of the ancestors had second marriages
Descendants of a grandfather+ 1st wife may have different ethnicity and different shared matches to those of second wife

DNA amounts for half cousins are similar to those of second cousins ( because only 1 parent in common )

I have a lot of experience in this kind of match as my mum has DNA matches to half cousins on 3 different grandparents lines

[TreeDigger]

Before making up elaborate stories about William's background.. [snip]  They have all however linked him to a UK service record from 1898 so that shows the quality of their research.

Debra 

Yep, saw that as well. The *cough* info on Ancestry was the main reason I decided to post on here. Obtaining a marriage certificate from Vital Records in the US is very time consuming and expensive though (checked it out) so not something I'll opt for if it doesn't concern immediate family.

It is, however, decidedly suspicious if a grandchild of somebody who purports to be 100% Irish does not have any Irish ancestry.

@brigidmac

Descendants of a grandfather+ 1st wife may have different ethnicity and different shared matches to those of second wife

True, but seeing how 'Irish William' is the common denominator in this case it's extremely suspicious that the grandchild with the largest cM match doesn't have any Irish DNA. Seeing how all three do have Welsh ancestry however..

I'll trace the other branches to see whether they may have contributed the Irish percentage, but William's origins remain my main focal point. I'm still convinced he's closely linked to the Liverpool Prince family, as all mutual matches with the Dempsey descendants tie right in.

[aghadowey]

It is, however, decidedly suspicious if a grandchild of somebody who purports to be 100% Irish does not have any Irish ancestry.

Not really. DNA ethnicity is just estimates which vary from company to company depending on their database of members and calculations.

My paternal grandfather's were 'Irish' so you might expect me to show about 25% Irish origins. As well, two of my paternal grandmother's ancestors also came from Ireland. On Ancestry I have 4%. On My Heritage my results are grouped under Irish, Scottish & Welsh and since I do have Scottish & Welsh ancestors impossible to show which part of my DNA is 'Irish.' FTDNA gives my 16% Irish ancestry. Other origins across all three companies vary as well.

Like Dundee, I would advise you to look at the facts by checking actual records. Marriage certificate should list names of both parents and from there you can hopefully pinpoint William's birth, etc. As you say, not just a matter of looking it up online.

The period (1920s) when William arrived in America should help provide more details. You have an approximate idea of dates. The shipping manifest is likely to cover 2 pages (many people only look at the first page) and lists name and address of next of kin in country of origin as well as birthplace.

You have a birthdate for William (which may or may not be correct) so you can check Irish births (full details - actual image of registration - can be viewed at no cost) but don't for get that there will be lots of William Dempseys born in Ireland around that time, his birth might be registered as 'unknown' if parents hadn't yet chosen Christian name(s) and you don't yet have confirmation of his parents' names to cross-check that.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp

Then there are census records- 1901 and 1911 for both Ireland and England. Irish census records here-
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

[TreeDigger]

Not really. DNA ethnicity is just estimates which vary from company to company depending on their database of members and calculations.

Oh, for sure.
For example, LivingDNA puts me at 75% British, while I'm 100% sure my mother is Dutch/Frisian with a topping of German/French/Polish/etc. (Ancestry says she's part Mexican, so my kids have dropped the Frisian 'beppe' for 'grandmother' and now call her 'abuela')

My paternal grandfather's were 'Irish' so you might expect me to show about 25% Irish origins [snip] On Ancestry I have 4%.

You have some though. Of Dempsey's (great-)grandkids, one has none whatsoever, though they all tie in with my Liverpool matches. I also have to admit that I find 132cM vs 27cM for matches which supposedly have the same grandparents quite extraordinary, almost as if there was at least one extra generation between them. Or, as brigidmac said, there's a half-sibling in there.

Btw, I checked both sites you linked (thank you for that!) and though I've used both Dempsey & Dempsy, even left out 'William' and extended his DoB to 1895-1905, there's no birth or census record that comes close enough to any combination of William, son of Thomas & Agnes. Or shows a birth date of 30 June 1900. Having said that, no such combination can be found in the Liverpool area either. So..

William may have assumed a new surname when entering the US, which leaves virtually nothing to research. The only option then would be to order the marriage certificate from Roosevelt, NY, but of course chances are William may not have been truthful then either :/

[TreeDigger]

Been trawling through pages and pages of data, Irish census takings, parochial records.. nothing. Which brings me back to facts based on DNA. So I went through each of the mutual matches that William Dempsey's grandchild (132cM/9segm) and I have in common and to my surprise discovered an outlier; out of the 7 mutual matches, one does not descend from my 2x great-grandmother's 2nd marriage to Joseph Prince, but her 1st marriage to Robert Penn Threlfall.

Of course Ancestry's sadly lacking chromosome browser prevents seeing whether this one match pinged off recombined Prince-Stanton DNA in the other descendants and myself, so I'm still sticking to the theory Dempsey had a Prince parent. The matches combined with relationship prediction tools all point in that direction as well. Here's the genetic and genealogical possibilities based on both DNA and grandparent/grandchild ages: 1900/1962 vs 1901/1965.
 
*DNA Painter's Shared cM Tool
50% h2c
24% 3c
15% 2c
8%   h3c-3c1x
2%   4c-h3c1x

*DNA Segment Tool
52.5% h2c
21.9% 3c
19.9% 2c
3.9%   3c1x-h3c
1.5%   4c-h3c1x

*MyHeritage cM Explainer
40.1% 3c
16.3% 2c
11.8% h2c
3/5%  3c1x
1.5%   h3c

What this boils down to in order to narrow search parameters..

*half second cousin (h2c)
Great-grandmother Frances Prince (1868-1950) potentially was a bad girl during her marriage (=1888) and popped out an illegitimate child somewhere among the 'official brood' born in 1889, 1890, 1895, 1897, 1900, 1901, 1903, 1906, 1909 and 1912. Dempsey could've (also) fibbed about his YoB, great-Grams apparently was pretty fertile, and great-Gramps George was on board ships around 1900.

*second cousin (2c)
This means Dempsey is a full sibling of my grandfather. The 5 year gap between child #2 and #3 provides a theoretical possibility. In 1891 great-Grams is listed as head of a household of 2, which includes sister Agnes (daughter Sarah born 1890 is suspiciously absent) but not hubby George, who was off to sea again. She could've been overwhelmed, found herself pregnant, and decided to give up the baby. Who knows. Life sure wasn't easy back then.

*third cousin (3c)
Great-Grams' sibling Agnes Prince (1872-1940), marr. 1894 to Thomas Foster, basically is my main suspect. She's not just the only full sibling that lived long enough to have a child (she and Thomas had 7 in 1895, 1896, 1898, 1902, 1904, 1907 and 1909) but somehow an identical name pops up as William Dempsey's mother in some of Ancestry's trees. And what I've learned from researching the many illegitimate kids in my tree is that they have a tendency to lie about everything except two things: their actual birthday, and the name of their mother. So it's possible some relative actually did order William's marriage certificate, and he had given her real name.

So how does one go about proving the above theories?