Author Topic: Hale family (shoemakers) - who were the parents of Mary born Brighton 1838?  (Read 1196 times)

Offline Aceh

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This is an old problem that I have returned to once and awhile with no certain result.
My 2 x great-great grandmother, Mary was, according to her birth certificate, born on 5 May 1838 at 12, Riding School Lane, Brighton, Sussex. Father Joseph Hale, Shoemaker; Mother Susan Hale formerly Williams. Birth registration: Q2 1838, Brighton, Volume 7, Page 246.
Mary was married on 23 December 1857 at St Paul's Finsbury, Middlesex, to Alfred Cullmer of the Royal London Militia. The marriage certificate records that Mary's father was John Hale, Shoemaker.
Mary has not been found on the 1841 Census, but there was a John Hale aged 30, warehousman in Shoreditch, born within the county, with wife Elizabeth, but I don't think he is connected.  Mary has been found in the 1851 Census she is recorded, aged 13 and born in Brighton, as the daughter of Sarah Hale, widow, Shoe Closer, born: "n K". Sarah also has sons aged 4 and 1 month, sugesting that she was only recently widowed. It is interesting to note that on the next line there appears " Harriett Healls", Head, unmarried, aged 29 born London, with daughter Ellen aged 10, born London. Harriett is described as a Shoe Binder. The following page was 'missing' it seems, as it was not sent to me out in Sumatra. Mary appears again, in the 1881 Census, as married to Alfred Cullmer with her place of birth confirmed as Brighton.
As there are several people in this tale named Hale in the shoe making trade, both in Brighton and in London it occurs to me that there may have been an extended family named Hale, in Brighton and possibly later in London, making shoes. Does anyone have any connection with Hale families or the shoemaking trade that might throw some light on this gordian knot? I would like to trace Mary's ancestral line back if that's possible, but for that I do need accurately to establish her parentage - no likely marriage found so far.
CUL(L)MER: N, E + SE London 19 cent, E Kent pre 1830, New York post 1850, Vic Australia post 1850
JOHNSON: (dockers/ropemakers) Tower Hamlets pre WWII
OSBORN:(dyers, scourers & gloove cleaners) Hoxton, Islington, Clerkenwell pre 1900
KEWLEY: Bradford 1830-1913, IoM pre 1850
CANNELL: IoM pre 1820
FABB: Cambridge
COLE(S): Warks/Oxon border pre 1830
RILEY: (RC) Bishopsgate area pre 1800
HALE: Brighton pre 1850
KIPPS: E Kent pre 1750
HARDING: MEOT post 1850, Bath Area pre 1850
PARTINGTON Lancs

Online rosie99

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Re: Hale family (shoemakers) - who were the parents of Mary born Brighton 1838?
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 11 February 24 15:56 GMT (UK) »
I would say that the following entry in 1851 says Hall not Hale.  The following page does exist and is clearer reading Hall.
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Online rosie99

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Re: Hale family (shoemakers) - who were the parents of Mary born Brighton 1838?
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 11 February 24 16:14 GMT (UK) »
My 2 x great-great grandmother, Mary was, according to her birth certificate, born on 5 May 1838 at 12, Riding School Lane, Brighton, Sussex. Father Joseph Hale, Shoemaker; Mother Susan Hale formerly Williams. Birth registration: Q2 1838, Brighton, Volume 7, Page 246.

Who registered the birth
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Offline Aceh

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Re: Hale family (shoemakers) - who were the parents of Mary born Brighton 1838?
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 11 February 24 23:29 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Rosi for your swift replies.

1. The birth was registered by Joseph Hale, father.
2. Yes, it's a problem with hand writing. It appeared to me longer than a 4 letter word, but it was the occupation "Shoe Binder" which made me think that she may have been of interest, appearing as she did immediately below Sarah Hale, "Shoe Closer", and daughter Mary.

 
CUL(L)MER: N, E + SE London 19 cent, E Kent pre 1830, New York post 1850, Vic Australia post 1850
JOHNSON: (dockers/ropemakers) Tower Hamlets pre WWII
OSBORN:(dyers, scourers & gloove cleaners) Hoxton, Islington, Clerkenwell pre 1900
KEWLEY: Bradford 1830-1913, IoM pre 1850
CANNELL: IoM pre 1820
FABB: Cambridge
COLE(S): Warks/Oxon border pre 1830
RILEY: (RC) Bishopsgate area pre 1800
HALE: Brighton pre 1850
KIPPS: E Kent pre 1750
HARDING: MEOT post 1850, Bath Area pre 1850
PARTINGTON Lancs


Online rosie99

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Re: Hale family (shoemakers) - who were the parents of Mary born Brighton 1838?
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 14 March 24 16:01 GMT (UK) »
Son William born 10th November 1846 was baptised 8th June 1856 at St Bartholomew By the Exchange, City of London, England - Parents Joseph and Sarah - Ancestry have it transcribed as Hole.
Joseph's occupation given as 'Closer'

Thomas was baptised 1st June 1856 at the same place, his date of birth 26 February 1851, father Joseph, mother Sarah - fathers occupation Book Closer (I think that should be Boot Closer  :-\ )

Address was 79 Milton Street.
...

There is a workhouse infirmary admission on 15th September 1883 for a Joseph Hale bn c 1813 - Roman Catholic - occ Shoemaker - Widower

....

What happened to Sarah after 1851
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Offline Aceh

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Re: Hale family (shoemakers) - who were the parents of Mary born Brighton 1838?
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 19 March 24 12:35 GMT (UK) »
Rosi,

Been having a bit of trouble with the rootschat tech, the computer asked for a longer password which i gave it, but when I used it, I was told that Aceh already existed as a user name. As I approach my 79th birthday I dont have time for all this, so I've returned to the original password and miraculousy appear to have got through!

Ok,back to Mary Hale and her parentage:
 
I have found on FreeREG, a bride named Sarah Susanna Williams, who might have been Mary's mother, in a marriage on 15 August 1835 at Brighton, therefore close to Mary's birth in 1838, but the groom was recorded as Frank Francis (which in itself is strange) and when i checked to see if he had died and left Sarah Susanna a widow in time for her to remarry to a Mr Hale and be the mother of Mary, alas no such death or burial found.
I also looked on FreeREG for a suitable marriage of a Joseph [John?] Hale, but all that came up were  marriages by Joseph Howell to Ann Leticia Terry and Joseph Hoole to Ann Beggis.

What we have are 2 official legal documents of record:
1. the Birth Certificate of Mary Hale stating that her father was Joseph Hale, Shoemaker and his mother was Susan Hale formerly Williams (5 May 1838 at Brighton).
2. the Marriage Certificate of Mary Hale to Alfred Cullmer in which the bride's father was stated as John Hale, Shoemaker. (23 September 1857 at Finsbury, London).

My jottings from back in 2002 show a number of Hale families in Brighton and London (several found to be duplicates) and it has been suggested that this group was so close that Mary may have been passed to and living with, families other than her own for duties such as child care, domestic help, etc. At the time I could make nothing of this as connection between these Hale families could not be established.

Another thought has come to mind. Were the clergy in the mid 1800s still using Day Books to scribble down the details of BMDs as they happened and get these records transferred to the Registers later? Were Bishops transcripts still being used to confirm or correct the Register entries?
Back in the 1600s I have found evidence of a screw up between Day Book scribbles and Register, not being picked up by the BTs. I have seen the state of some of these Day Books! I wonder whether this is again the problem?
CUL(L)MER: N, E + SE London 19 cent, E Kent pre 1830, New York post 1850, Vic Australia post 1850
JOHNSON: (dockers/ropemakers) Tower Hamlets pre WWII
OSBORN:(dyers, scourers & gloove cleaners) Hoxton, Islington, Clerkenwell pre 1900
KEWLEY: Bradford 1830-1913, IoM pre 1850
CANNELL: IoM pre 1820
FABB: Cambridge
COLE(S): Warks/Oxon border pre 1830
RILEY: (RC) Bishopsgate area pre 1800
HALE: Brighton pre 1850
KIPPS: E Kent pre 1750
HARDING: MEOT post 1850, Bath Area pre 1850
PARTINGTON Lancs

Online Dundee

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Re: Hale family (shoemakers) - who were the parents of Mary born Brighton 1838?
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 19 March 24 18:22 GMT (UK) »
These may be the sons' birth registrations and my guess is that there is no father named on either.

HALE, WILLIAM        -     
GRO Reference: 1846  D Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION  Volume 02  Page 231

HALE, THOMAS        -     
GRO Reference: 1851  J Quarter in EAST LONDON UNION  Volume 02  Page 228

Mary naming her father as John instead of Joseph is probably because she had no memory of him.

Debra  :)

Online rosie99

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Re: Hale family (shoemakers) - who were the parents of Mary born Brighton 1838?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 22 March 24 15:24 GMT (UK) »
Deleted - Sorry, posted about a Joseph Hale occ Baker, forgot he was a Shoemaker
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Offline Aceh

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Re: Hale family (shoemakers) - who were the parents of Mary born Brighton 1838?
« Reply #8 on: Monday 08 April 24 16:39 BST (UK) »
Hello Rosie,

Once again I can make no progress on Mary Hale's parentage, without it being 100% proven I cannot develop the line back. So, for the umteenth time I'm dropping her and returning to the pre 1538s.

Thanks for your help.
CUL(L)MER: N, E + SE London 19 cent, E Kent pre 1830, New York post 1850, Vic Australia post 1850
JOHNSON: (dockers/ropemakers) Tower Hamlets pre WWII
OSBORN:(dyers, scourers & gloove cleaners) Hoxton, Islington, Clerkenwell pre 1900
KEWLEY: Bradford 1830-1913, IoM pre 1850
CANNELL: IoM pre 1820
FABB: Cambridge
COLE(S): Warks/Oxon border pre 1830
RILEY: (RC) Bishopsgate area pre 1800
HALE: Brighton pre 1850
KIPPS: E Kent pre 1750
HARDING: MEOT post 1850, Bath Area pre 1850
PARTINGTON Lancs