Shared coat of arms

[emjsw]

Hi,

I just wondered whether 2 families with a shared coat of arms are likely to be related please or whether a coat of arms remains the same just because they have the same surname?
Example Busby of Addington and Busby of Uttoxeter, the awards were given in the 1600's and they have the same coat of arms but don't have a common ancestor that I can find in the 15 or 1600s.

Best wishes, Emma.

[Kiltpin]

Hello Emma,
Firstly, a grant of arms is to a person (usually the head of the household) and not to the whole family. The eldest son would inherit the arms on the death of his father, and so on down the line. During the father's lifetime, all the sons could use the arms but with a 'difference'. That way no one could confuse people. Who was the father?, who was the son?

The trouble is that the College of Arms had no mechanism to police the arms. If one family used the arms of another (usurpation) there was very little that anyone could do.

Added to this is the fact that heraldry was in common use long before the founding of the College. For example, none of the non-royal Dukes ever had a grant. They all assumed their arms before the college was founded.

If a wealthy merchant started to use a coat of arms, who would stop him?

The General Armory gives the same arms for Busby of Addington and Busby of Uttoxeter. There might not be a common ancestor - I would look for cousins and marriages.

Regards 

Chas

[emjsw]

Hello Emma,
Firstly, a grant of arms is to a person (usually the head of the household) and not to the whole family. The eldest son would inherit the arms on the death of his father, and so on down the line. During the father's lifetime, all the sons could use the arms but with a 'difference'. That way no one could confuse people. Who was the father?, who was the son?

The trouble is that the College of Arms had no mechanism to police the arms. If one family used the arms of another (usurpation) there was very little that anyone could do.

Added to this is the fact that heraldry was in common use long before the founding of the College. For example, none of the non-royal Dukes ever had a grant. They all assumed their arms before the college was founded.

If a wealthy merchant started to use a coat of arms, who would stop him?

The General Armory gives the same arms for Busby of Addington and Busby of Uttoxeter. There might not be a common ancestor - I would look for cousins and marriages.

Regards 

Chas

Hi Chas,

Thank you for explaining it, it can be really confusing, especially with those commercial sites (who have got the arrows on the Busby coat of arms upside down!).
Thanks also for the advice, I will try searching for cousins.
The Uttoxeter Busby's descend from Andrew Busby d1514 and the Addington ones from William Busby of Great Tew d 1513. William's great grandson John mentions the name Sheppard in his will and so does Andrew, I will look into a connection.

Best wishes, Emma

[KGarrad]

Burke's General Armory has this to say:

Busby (Addington)   Or, three arrows sa. headed and barbed ar. on a chief of the second as many mullets of the field.  Crest-a stag's head ar.erased gu. pierced through the back of the neck with an arrow as in the arms.

Busby (Uttoxeter, co. Stafford. Visit. Rutland, 1618). Same Arms.

I think that, having the same arms, indicates that the 2 families were linked?

[emjsw]

Burke's General Armory has this to say:

Busby (Addington)   Or, three arrows sa. headed and barbed ar. on a chief of the second as many mullets of the field.  Crest-a stag's head ar.erased gu. pierced through the back of the neck with an arrow as in the arms.

Busby (Uttoxeter, co. Stafford. Visit. Rutland, 1618). Same Arms.

I think that, having the same arms, indicates that the 2 families were linked?

Hi, thank you very much for looking that up. I will try and find the connection 😊

[emjsw]

The eldest son would inherit the arms on the death of his father, and so on down the line. During the father's lifetime, all the sons could use the arms but with a 'difference'. That way no one could confuse people. Who was the father?, who was the son?

Hi Chas,
I hope you are well.
You mentioned with a 'difference', if I have understood correctly this might mean the father is still alive?
I am trying to draw the Frere coat of arms (to determine their family tree & who the grandparents might be). 1 of the 6 quarters uses 3 buckles or a mullet for a difference, perhaps that means they are related to the son of who ever was awarded the arms and that the awardee is still alive?
https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou57harv/page/n158/mode/1up?q=Frere quarter 4
Best wishes, Emma

[MaecW]

Hi Emma,
The use of the mullet indicates that the bearer is the third son of the current (?)  holder who is (probably)  still alive at the time the arms were recorded. (I say "probably" because the third son and his descendants may have opted to retain the mark on their arms to denote their connection to the senior branch of the family. There were/are no hard and fast rules on the use of cadency marks.)

I note the extract names the other families whose arms are shown but not this one. Is it related to the Buckleys of Buckley, who use "Sable a chevron argent between three bulls' heads cabossed Argent."? The use of the buckles  would then suggest they are "canting" or a visual pun on the family name.
Maec

[emjsw]

Hi Emma,
The use of the mullet indicates that the bearer is the third son of the current (?)  holder who is (probably)  still alive at the time the arms were recorded. (I say "probably" because the third son and his descendants may have opted to retain the mark on their arms to denote their connection to the senior branch of the family. There were/are no hard and fast rules on the use of cadency marks.)

I note the extract names the other families whose arms are shown but not this one. Is it related to the Buckleys of Buckley, who use "Sable a chevron argent between three bulls' heads cabossed Argent."? The use of the buckles  would then suggest they are "canting" or a visual pun on the family name.
Maec

Hi Maec,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

Thank you for the information regarding the mullet, it is interesting to know he may be the third son as this may aid in my search to discover who it is.

So far the tree goes back from William Frere to PYMME then back again to PORTER. I have not got back to a Buckley. William's wife Agnes/Anne was a RYVES. I think his mother was Elizabeth PYMME and his grandmother was Katherine PORTER but perhaps William (or his father Thomas) had a first wife (as yet UNKNOWN) who was a BUCKLEY?

This has given me a new angle to search and I am very grateful to you for taking the time to look and to explain.
Thank you so much.

Best wishes, Emma

[KGarrad]

The eldest son would inherit the arms on the death of his father, and so on down the line. During the father's lifetime, all the sons could use the arms but with a 'difference'. That way no one could confuse people. Who was the father?, who was the son?

Hi Chas,
I hope you are well.
You mentioned with a 'difference', if I have understood correctly this might mean the father is still alive?
I am trying to draw the Frere coat of arms (to determine their family tree & who the grandparents might be). 1 of the 6 quarters uses 3 buckles or a mullet for a difference, perhaps that means they are related to the son of who ever was awarded the arms and that the awardee is still alive?
https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou57harv/page/n158/mode/1up?q=Frere quarter 4
Best wishes, Emma

Each of the 6 quarters relates to a different family:
Q1 = Frere
Q2 = Pymm
Q3 = Porter
Q4 = (not named)
Q5 = Bustard
Q6 = Bamfield

Only Q4 has a mullet for difference; none of the other 5 do.