1881 and 1891 Samuel Geeves - Hertford, Pavitts Yard/st Andrews Street

[shafashau]

Hi I'm looking into the familial history of Joseph Geeves (son of Samuel Geeves). I found his census but am confused where exactly he lived? In the 1881 census it just has Pavitts Yard as his address and in the 1891 census it has st andrews street cont(?) (can't figure out what the rest reads).

I believe Pavitts Yard and St. Andrews Street are nearby one another (based on a google search) but am unsure. I would appreciate any help in this matter.

[Neale1961]

There is some information here about the "yards" of St Andrew Street.

https://www.ourhertfordandware.org.uk/content/places/hertford-places/hertford-through-time/hertford-in-1911/the_courts_and_yards_of_st_andrew_street_hertford_1911

Further on, there is a bit of information about confusion of names.
"Confusingly the 1911 census transcription entries refer to ‘Riddills’ Yard and, as was often the case, other names for the yard were also used – in this case Pavitt’s Yard or Hattam’s Yard – dictated by the name of the shop or other premises at its entrance."

[shafashau]

Hi!

Yes I did come across this page...the excerpt you added in your reply, does this mean that the 'Yards' name is actually Kidill or Riddill? and was mistakenly referred to as Pavitt or Hattam in the census? Or is it that, "dictated by the name of the shop or other premises at its entrance" based on this, Pavitt and Hattam are shops or other premises near the Kidill and/or Riddill yard and was thus referred to as Pavitt and/or Hattem in the census?

[Neale1961]

Looking at the 2 census records 1881 and 1891 -
I think in 1891 the enumerator has not specifically named the Yard (as it was done in 1881) - but called it a continuation of St Andrews Street. He has given the yard the number 65 and then used letters (A B C D ...etc) to identify all the abodes within the yard. So your family is at 65H.


Added - In this page, you see that there is no number 65 or 66 in St Andrew Street, which would be why the enumerator chose that number to use for the yard. Perhaps he was unsure of the name of the yard.
https://www.ourhertfordandware.org.uk/content/places/hertford-places/hertford-through-time/hertford-in-1911/st_andrew_street_hertford_1911-2

In the picture there, you see two white houses, and somewhere nearby must have been the entrance to Pavitts Yard.

[Neale1961]

Another link see – plus photo
Nos. 65-65m were located in Kiddill’s Yard, which was off the main street (probably through the arch that can be seen in the photograph above) and where over 50 people lived. (THIS WAS IN 1911)
https://www.ourhertfordandware.org.uk/content/places/hertford-places/hertford-through-time/hertford-in-1911/st_andrew_street_hertford_1911

[Neale1961]

Hi!

Yes I did come across this page...the excerpt you added in your reply, does this mean that the 'Yards' name is actually Kidill or Riddill? and was mistakenly referred to as Pavitt or Hattam in the census? Or is it that, "dictated by the name of the shop or other premises at its entrance" based on this, Pavitt and Hattam are shops or other premises near the Kidill and/or Riddill yard and was thus referred to as Pavitt and/or Hattem in the census?

My understanding (and I might be wrong) is that the name of the yard could change depending upon the name of the premises at the entrance. For example when the Riddell family had a premise or shop at the entrance, it would be called Riddell Yard (as in 1911), but it had been previously / earlier been known as Pavitt’s Yard and Hattam’s Yard because the shop or abode at the entrance had been lived in by someone with those names.

By the way, welcome to RootsChat.

[shafashau]

Hi,

Sorry for the late reply, I was attempting to find an old map of the area but it looks like there aren't any digital records.

This helps so much, thank you! Just for clarification, when you say "Nos. 65-65m were located in Kiddill’s Yard, which was off the main street (probably through the arch that can be seen in the photograph above) and where over 50 people lived." Which picture are you referring to exactly? Is it one of the pictures in this link (https://www.ourhertfordandware.org.uk/content/places/hertford-places/hertford-through-time/hertford-in-1911/st_andrew_street_hertford_1911) or this link (https://www.ourhertfordandware.org.uk/content/places/hertford-places/hertford-through-time/hertford-in-1911/st_andrew_street_hertford_1911-2)

[Neale1961]

Scroll down on the link I gave to the photo -
"Eliza Hattam’s shop can be seen on the right-hand side of this photograph, to the left of the arch (credit: Hertfordshire Archives & Local Studies)"
https://www.ourhertfordandware.org.uk/content/places/hertford-places/hertford-through-time/hertford-in-1911/st_andrew_street_hertford_1911

[shafashau]

Aaaah okay, yes I see it now.

Yet again, thank you so much for the help. I'm currently working on a history assignment and I wanted to include some information about the residence, so your help is much appreciated. If you don't mind I'd like to cite you as a reference, of course if you are not comfortable I can simply reference the websites you linked.