Help with Dating Photos from C19th

[richredwood]

Dear All,

I'd appreciate any help with dating the attached photos or identifying the people in them, or indeed confirming the location in one instance. I understand that the two formal photos of people standing in front of 'grand frontages' concern the same family, albeit some years apart.

In the photograph ending WA0005, the location seems to be Menzies Castle in Aberfeldy, which hosted game shoots; I understand the photographer to be Robert Irvine and Son of Aberfeldy. I take the photograph of the shooting party at rest (ending WA0002) to be related to this photograph.

In the photograph ending WA0001, the location is speculative, tentatively being identified as Brougham Hall near Penrith. The photographer is J. Lomax of 45 Bridge Street, Penrith.


Though I didn't know it at the time, these photos may be connected to my related Rootschat query at: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=880554.new;topicseen#new
(These pictures may somehow connect to the family of the "adopted" Jane Weatherby in that query).

Thanks again,

Richard

[still_looking]

The RCAHMS entry for Castle Menzies includes the 1902 sale catalogue for the estate including named shootings, I might take a wander on geograph in case the location of the shooting party is identifiable.
https://canmore.org.uk/collection/2152424

S_L

[maddys52]

For interest, Robert IRVINE, photographer of Aberfeldy is mentioned in a few newspaper items from around 1877.

[jim1]

First 2 are 1860's & the 3rd. 1870's.

[arthurk]

I don't know any of the places you've mentioned, but based on online images I think you're right about Castle Menzies:

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/968718

However, I'm not sure about Brougham Hall. With the massive round pillar embedded in the wall and the gothic arch, I wondered if Lowther Castle might be more likely - this is also near Penrith. Selection of images here:

https://www.geograph.org.uk/of/lowther%20castle

[richredwood]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the suggestions. I confess that I didn't know about Geograph before so I'll be having a good poke around there to see what I can find. The idea of there actually be a list of shooting parties is quite enticing, though it feels quite a distant prospect right now given all the other uncertainties. Nothing ventured though ...

And, yes, while I'm very happy with the Castle Menzies attribution, it really is the 'Brougham Hall' location that has me in knots. I understand that at some point (1930s?), the Hall was significantly reduced in size, so the doorway may possibly no longer exist. I have written to the Hall but am not expecting an immediate response. I took at a look at Lowther Castle and I agree that the general architecture seems to fit: from the online images available though, I don't yet find a match. Maybe if Brougham proves a miss, I should write to Lowther next.

I'm also led to believe that the dates for the photographer Robert Irvine are 1817-1888 so, in one  sense, that would seem to fix the absolute outer time margins.

Jim_1, I'm not even a novice with photodating: would you be so kind as to help me understand what elements pin these photos to the 1860s and 1870s. What should I be focussing on here?

Thanks again,

Richard





 

[arthurk]

I've just remembered another source of old photos for that area - the Cumbria Imagebank:

https://cumbriaimagebank.org.uk/index.php

Plenty there to keep you busy, and while having a look just now I learned that there's a Brougham Castle as well as Brougham Hall. It looks to have been rather grander, although it's been a ruin since the 1700s, so unlikely to be the one in the photo.

[jim1]

The most noticeable clue to a timeframe are the crinolines worn
by the women in pic.1.
The hairstyles look quite severe & you'll notice most of the women
have their hair brushed down covering their ears.
Both of these styles are typical of the first half of the decade.
The woman on the left in pic.2 is wearing a Zouave jacket also typical
of the 1860's.
In pic. 3 you can see the crinoline has now gone & the hairstyles are more
elaborate & the woman on the right is wearing a lace "scarf" called a Jabot
which was exclusive to the 1870's.
I think if you can identify the property you should be able to identify the people
in the photo as this looks like a household photo.
It wasn't unusual for inhabitants of grand houses to have their photos taken
with family & staff.
You'll notice the 2 women on the left are dressed differently to the other women
& look possibly like housekeeper & nanny/governess.

[richredwood]

Thanks again for the replies. Plenty to be exploring with the image sets then, I see.

jim1,

Very kind and helpful; an eye-opener, indeed. I'm not yet confident about drawing any conclusions and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Brougham Hall might respond with some good news. I do agree that identifying the property would go a long way to unlocking this puzzle ...

In any case, will re-post if and when I get a response from Brougham or I find anything else significant.

Richard