Robert Grieves - risen from the dead?

[Jomot]

I’m trying to trace the groom from a 1917 marriage at South Shields Register Office, but unless he died in 1916 and rose from the dead then I’m completely stumped!

Robert Grieves, 37, Bachelor, Private Northumberland Fusiliers (marine stoker), 56 Albion Street, Jarrow.  Father: Alfred Grieves, Ship Driller
Gwendoline O'Toole, 38, Widow, 56 Albion Street, Jarrow [NB also known as Winifred]
Wits: Wm C Barclay & Elizabeth Badger

His service number was 10175, and the Shields Daily Gazette of 27 July 1917 has an article about him being charged as a deserter.  He told magistrates that he enlisted at the outbreak of war, served for a week, and then left the camp and went to sea.  His age is given as 37 and he was found in Albarry Street (sic).

His pension cards give addresses of 46 Rose Street, Hebburn (his address in 1921) and 6½ Villier Street, Sunderland.  The latter ties in with a Merchant Seamans record giving his birth as 27 Mar 1883, Sunderland, Next of Kin: Alfred Grieves, 6½ Villier Street, Sunderland.  NB The 1921 census gives his age as 40 years & 3-months, born Sunderland, so born Mar 1881

Despite all of this information I can’t find him before marriage, unless he is the Robert Graves who married Margaret Kirven in 1906 in Jarrow.  In 1911 he is with Margaret at 57 High Street, Jarrow, aged 30.  With them is his widowed mother Hannah Graves (nee Day) aged 57 born Hull.

I have this man’s birth certificate – born 11 Feb 1881 High Street Jarrow, parents Robert (Iron Shipyard Labourer) and Hannah (nee Day).  Registered 7 May 1881

This Robert is reported to have died 31 May 1916 whilst serving aboard HMS Queen Mary.  Margaret’s widows pension says Robert was in the Royal Navy Reserve, No. 2973, but his RNR records (from TNA) give his DoB as 11 Jun 1885!

To further complicate things there are school records in Sunderland in 1893 and 1897 for a Robt Grieves born either 6 Mar 1885 (father Alfred) or 27 Mar 1886 (father deceased). 

Can anyone help me sort this out please!

[Mabel Bagshawe]

A vague possible in 1901? Burleigh St, Sunderland

Frederick Branton 19
Mary E Branton 19
John W Branton  1
Robert Greves    17    Boarder Shipyard labourer b Sunderland

[Jomot]

Thanks Mabel, its certainly possible - he's driving me up the wall!

I keep going back to the pension card with the address of 6½ Villier Street, Sunderland, which leads to the Merchant Seaman record that lists his NoK as Alfred Grieves of the same address and gives his DoB as 27 Mar 1883, Sunderland.

The 1897 school record (Chester Road Board School) gives a DoB of 27 Mar 1886 but says father deceased, address Union.

The 1893 school record (Hudson Road Boys) has a DoB of 6 Mar 1885 but lists his father as Alfred (which matches his 1917 marriage) and gives an address of 29 Covent Garden Street.  Left later the same year as left the town.

Baptised from the same address on 22 Jun 1893 was Alfred s/o Jane & Alfred Grieves.  The mmn on Alfred's birth registration was McCloud, which leads me to this birth, in the Lanchester RD:

27 Mar 1886 27 South Medomsley, Collierley RSD, Robert s/o Alfred Greaves, Coal Miner, and Jane Greaves late Batsobena (?) formerly McCloud  (I love these £2.50 PDFs!!)

Have I finally found the right person?

[Neale1961]

I keep going back to the pension card with the address of 6½ Villier Street, Sunderland, which leads to the Merchant Seaman record that lists his NoK as Alfred Grieves of the same address and gives his DoB as 27 Mar 1883, Sunderland.

He may have had reason for wanting to put his age up / appear older than he was.

[Jomot]

He may have had reason for wanting to put his age up / appear older than he was.

Possibly.  The record is said to be from 1918.

Gwendoline's stated age at marriage is 38 but she was actually 46.  If I now have the correct Robert and he was born March 1886 then he will have only been 31 and not 37 per the marriage certificate.

[heywood]

“27 Mar 1886 27 South Medomsley, Collierley RSD, Robert s/o Alfred Greaves, Coal Miner, and Jane Greaves late Batsobena (?) formerly McCloud  (I love these £2.50 PDFs!!)”

Marriage Sept 1870, Sunderland
Jane mcCloud and Henry Badsterbener/Badstubener

1871 5015 /39/1
Jane Badstenbener married 19 yrs Servant b Newcastle

Marriage 1899 Sunderland
Jane Bodstubenner and Alfred Grieve

[JenB]

“27 Mar 1886 27 South Medomsley, Collierley RSD, Robert s/o Alfred Greaves, Coal Miner, and Jane Greaves late Batsobena (?) formerly McCloud  (I love these £2.50 PDFs!!)”

Marriage Sept 1870, Sunderland
Jane mcCloud and Henry Badsterbener/Badstubener

Death: Henry Badstubever aged 27, 4th q 1876, Sunderland 10a, 288

There were also these births:

Henry John Badstubener, 1st q 1872 Sunderland 10a, 607, mmn Mcleod
James William Badstubener, 3rd q 1876, Sunderland 10a, 663, mmn Mcleod.

Which possibly leads to this family in Lynesack 1891 

RG 12/ 4078/52/29

Alfred Greaves, boarder, m, 46, coal miner, Durham Cockfield
Jane do,  wife, m, 42, Northumberland, Newcastle
Henry do, son, s, 19, do, Durham Sunderland
James do, son, s, 15, do do
John do, son, s, 17, do do
Albert E. do, son, 12, do do
Jane A. do, daur, 4 months, do do **
Robert do, son, 4, do do

** Jane Ann Grieves, birth registered 1st q 1891, Sunderland 10a, 628, mmn Mcleod

[Jomot]

Ah, now this is looking better, thank you! 

I couldn't understand why Robert would say that Alfred, his father, was a Ship Driller when he was a coal miner, but I've found him in 1901 in Haswell with a new occupation RG13/4688/29/11

Alfred Grieve 49 Boiler Maker Steel b Sunderland
Jane 47 wife b Sunderland
Jane A 10 daur b Sunderland
Alfred 8 son b Sunderland

But this obviously doesn't tie up with the 1897 school record saying that Robert's father was deceased    It does explain why I couldn't find a death for him though!

I feel like this is probably the right family for 'my' Robert and that he wasn't Robert Graves risen from the dead, but I still have a nagging uncertainty. 

In 1911 I think Alfred Jr is at 3 Queen Street, Sunderland, aged 19 but then I lose him.  Still looking for what happened to Alfred Sr too. 

[JenB]

Might this be Alfred senior in 1911?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWH6-9TJ