Dead Child included in 1911 Census

[jonw65]

Hi
Re the possible Chamberlain marriage for Hannah. It was just looking through the possibilities on FreeBMD, there aren't that many likely ones. As you say, Hannah doesn't seem to be around as Stephens in 1939.
Of course I don't know for sure it is right, but, yes, the probate record looks promising.

If Hannah did marry Arthur Gordon, then the 1942 probate record for him gives an address of 6 Grange Road Ellacombe Torquay.
Now I don't have access to much at home nowadays, but the free index to the 1939 Register has
Hannah Chamberlain, born 1912, living at 6 Grange Road, Torquay M.B., Devon. She seems to be married but on her own on the night.
Date of birth seems to be 11 August. Obviously 1912 is well out from 1908, but perhaps if her husband was younger than her, Hannah wasn't entirely up front about her year of birth.

When you get the birth certificate of Sarah / Hannah it will be interesting to see if she was born on 11 August!

There is a Hannah Chamberlain indexed on the London electoral registers in Hayes & Harlington (well two Hannahs actually, but one of them has other forenames/initials)
But I don't know if that might be her, as I can't see where exactly she is living, and whether anyone else is at the address.

As to Hilda, it all sounds very mysterious. Is there anything else you know about her?
John

[Elastik]

The identity of Hannah Stephens is contradicted in the records. She is mentioned in the 1911 & 1921 Censuses with an age that suggest a DoB of 1909 but as has been mentioned the GRO does not have a Hannah Stephens being born then to MMN Tolputt, however, it does have -

STEPHENS, SARAH       MMN TOLPUTT 
GRO Reference: 1908  S Quarter in HARTLEPOOL  Volume 10A  Page 182  Occasional Copy: A

which could be her known by a different forename. With luck this birth cert. will make it clearer. It's difficult to formulate a logical approach to find "Hilda" if the family liked to call each other by a variety of names. I thought I would try to eliminate each of Reuben's recorded sisters before looking at potential "Hildas" from extra-marital relationships. The oldest seems to be Edith DoB 1895. She is on the 1901 & 1911 Censuses & then seems to have moved to Bristol with the family  where she married Charles Randall in 1916 D Quarter (6A/330) and they later appear on the 1921 Census at 8 High Street, Shirehampton with children Joyce Doreen & Arnold John. After that I cannot find any of this family on the 1939 Register.

I have no other information at all about "Hilda" apart from the odds & ends I've included in the thread. It could be she's a known sister under another name or from another relationship. Thanks to all for the suggestions so far.

[Elastik]

Re: further information about "Hilda". I asked my source who he thought "Miss H Stephens" was and his reply follows.
Question -
"Do you have a theory yourself about who the "Miss H Stephens" is mentioned in the Western Daily Press funeral notice?"
Answer -
"Yes, I think Miss H Stephens is Hilda, a name she adopted.  She was at the funeral, but died while we still lived at One Woodleaze, Sea Mills.  We moved to The Crescent Sea Mills during the spring of 1956, my last year at Sea Mills Primary School. And so she died in London between 1954-1955. I know my brother stayed with her before his divorce in 1953 and I think my Dad and I visited her in London  in 1954."

This is reasonable except what happened to Hannah Stephens & why is there no record of Hilda Stephens?

[jonw65]

Hi again
Well, I got it a bit wrong about Hannah in the London electoral registers.
Thankfully a local public library has been open today, despite it being a bank holiday, so I now have the facts!

1961, 1962
640 Uxbridge Road, Hayes & Harlington (as per probate record)
Hannah Chamberlain (juror)
Nicholas Stylianra-Papa (I think that should read Stylianou)

From 1945 Hannah Chamberlain was living at 27c Cleveland Gardens, Paddington
She is listed on the electoral registers there until 1960.
I don't think she was ever on her own there, from 1948 Nicolas M Michael is also listed for some years. Antonis Michael is listed in 1949 only.

1952 has four names, Hannah Chamberlain and Nicholas Michael, and also Onoufrios Michaelides and Nicholas Stylianou-Papa

1953 it is Hannah, Nicholas Stylianou-Papa, and also a chap called Robert Page. Mr Michael gone.

So, Nicholas is there with Hannah in Paddington right up to 1960, I think for a time he is just recorded as Nicholas Papa.
1960
27c Cleveland Gardens
Hannah Chamberlain
Nicholas Stylianou-Papa

Then, as said,  Hannah Chamberlain and Nicholas S-P moved to 640 Uxbridge Road.

[jonw65]

Interesting, could this be the same man marrying after Hannah died?
June 1962 Uxbridge 5f 253
Nicholas S. Papa
+
Mary E. Brothers

1963 electoral register
12 Bishops Close, Hillingdon, Uxbridge
Mary E. Stylianou-Papa
Nicholas Stylianou-Papa

[jonw65]

He says "I don’t think Hilda ever married and left everything to her business partner, a Cypriot by the name of Marco.

Could Nicholas Stylianou-Papa have been from Cyprus? It wold be quite a coincidence

"I met her just once when I was about seven. She had an apartment in central London, where my brother stayed for a while when he first came to London in the early 1950s."

Does Cleveland Gardens in Paddington ring any bells for your source?

My primary source completely rejects the "Hilda was Hannah" theory.

There may still be some life in it!

[jonw65]

There may still be some life in it!

That is if the Hannah Stephens in questions did indeed marry Mr. Chamberlain!
The date of birth from the Sarah/Hannah cert may help of course. Hope they get it ready for you soon!
John

[Elastik]

Thanks for pursuing this so tenaciously. This looks compelling to me. My source did indeed state "Paddington" as the possible location for the apartment where "Hilda" lived, he also described her partner as "Cypriot". The names you found sound Greek to me, could be Greek-Cypriot. It's possible my main problem will be convincing my source that his memory of this Aunty & these events is just plain wrong. I'm old, he's even older than me. Apart from the fact that the mind plays strange tricks on you (at least mine does) he may decide in the end that he simply doesn't want to believe it. On a technical point what's the best way to search electoral registers? I have Ancestry & FindMyPast. Do they have full access or would I be better off going to a library?

[jonw65]

Hi
If you have ancestry then you can find everything I posted in their database London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
In 1961 I think they may have transcribed Nicholas as Nicholas Ktvlianra-Papa, he is indexed as Stylianra-Papa in 1962. Not sure how or even if Hannah is indexed in those years, but they generally have Hannah Chamberlain indexed OK from 1945-60.