John Barnes

[redbank]

Hello, looking for John Barnes.

In 1901, the Census says he is with John and Mary Quinn, Cattle Drover, Susannah Barnes, neice, age 11 and John Barnes, Brother in law, age 33, Groom, living at 6 Collier Lane, Carlisle.

John Barnes  marries in Carlisle in 1903 to Betsy MacDonald, the marriage certificate says he is 29 years old, a Groom by profession, living at 3 Collier Lane, Carlisle and that his father was John Barnes ( deceased), a Nursery Gardener.

In 1911 the census states he is 41 and a general labourer in stables, living with his wife and 2 children, at 14 Queen Street in Carlisle.

In 1921 the census states he is 51, working on the Railways as a labourer, widowed, living with his son John James Barnes, at 11 Collier Lane, Carlisle.

What I can't figure out is, who the parents are? I know the marriage certificate says, his father was John Barnes deceased, Nursery Gardener, but i can not find them on a census together or who his mother is.

Also,  in 1901 when he is with John and Mary Quinn, I cannot find a marriage certificate for them? I assume that John Barnes is Mary's brother! as it states he is the brother in law.
I think John Quinn dies then Mary remarries to  a John Stephen Wooler in 1902, they adopt a child and take in more family.

I appreciate any help, i tried checking all the John Barnes born in Carlisle from 1868 to 1872, but i seem to have hit a brick wall.

Thank you.

[CaroleW]

I’m thinking he may have been illegitimate - none of the following have a mmn

There is an 1865 birth birth in Cockermouth in the March qtr & another in the June qtr

Also an 1868 in June qtr Cockermouth

[amondg]

He is probably a brother/cousin to James Barnes who married Mary Jane Livingstone Sept quarter 1889

1891 Census 35 Queens Street
James Barnes 27  (BARNS on ancestry)
Mary Jane 23
Susannah 2

Susannah was born June quarter 1889 and was registered as Susannah Livingstone.

1901 6 Collier Lane
John Quinn 37
Mary Quinn 35    was Barnes nee Livingstone  (no marriage found to John Quinn)
Susannah Barnes 11  niece s/b step daughter 
John Barnes 33 Brother in law.

[Mabel Bagshawe]

1891 there's a possible for John in Eamont Bridge. Born c1873 Carlisle (or Parliste as Ancestry have it!), working as a stable lad at a race horse trainer's establishment

1881? Brewery Row, Carlisle

George Barnes 38, unmarried, carter
Jane French    62   servant, widow
John Barnes    12    Relative

[Mabel Bagshawe]

He is probably a brother/cousin to James Barnes who married Mary Jane Livingstone Sept quarter 1889

1891 Census 35 Queens Street
James Barnes 27  (BARNS on ancestry)
Mary Jane 23
Susannah 2

Susannah was born June quarter 1889 and was registered as Susannah Livingstone.

1901 6 Collier Lane
John Quinn 37
Mary Quinn 35    was Barnes nee Livingstone  (no marriage found to John Quinn)
Susannah Barnes 11  niece s/b step daughter 
John Barnes 33 Brother in law.

Not sure this works

1901 - 12 Queens St, Carlisle

James Barnes    38    
Mary J Barnes        30
Jane Barnes           63  mother, widow b Annan, Scotland

[amondg]

I think James was the son of James Barnes married Jane Irving 1864.

[Mabel Bagshawe]

This looks like them in 1871 - in Sunderland

James Barnes  42  labourer, waggonway  b Carlisle
Jane Barnes     41  b Scotland
Elizabeth Barnes   8   b Carlisle
James Barnes    5      b Carlisle
Mary Barnes      4  b Carlisle
John Barnes     1  b Carlisle
   
Is this our John, and sister Mary who became a Quinn?

[Mabel Bagshawe]

James Barnes jnr, Jane Barnes and Mary Jane alias Livingstone all have rather lengthy court records whch suggest the Barnes moved back to Carlisle  1884/85

Jane Barnes is in Woking Prison in 1891.

[redbank]

Thank you to everyone who has replied.
I had looked at James Barnes who marries Mary-Jane Livingstone, because Mary-Janes daughter Susannah Livingstone who is given the Barnes surname when her mother marrys, as you say lives with the Quinn family , then when Mary Quinn remarrys John Stephen Wooler in 1902, Susannah marrys Timothy Fiddler in 1911 in Carlisle, but Timothy died in 1920 from his war wounds, and they had 4 children. So when she is widowed, she is back  living with the Wooler family in 1921 also is Lizzie Barnes, age 11 who is the sister of John James Barnes. Also John James Barnes who is the son of John Barnes (the groom) is in 1939 living at 39 Gillford Crescent, Susannah Fiddler , widow is head of house, with some of her children there, and I think  John James Barnes is working with one of her sons, both general labourers.

I did see that James Barnes and his mother Jane, had notorious prison records stretching back over along period .I think James dies in 1914 and his wife Mary Jane dies 1915. They seem to go back and, forward from Carlisle over to the North East and back.

I also did look at the Barnes familys on Brewery Row living at number 4 & 5, where head of house was William Barnes and his wife Jane Nicholson, and also George his brother living next door, there all from Scaleby Hill, i did wonder if the John Barnes living with George Barnes was the one I was looking for, but I think that John is Williams son, I followed out that wholetree and most of them end in the workhouse for the parents and children.

I also looked at a John Barnes born 1841 who marrys Margaret Bates in 1870 at Upperby, Carlisle, who have a son John Barnes born 1872, but the fathers occupation was listed as Bricklayer, so i kind of ruled it out.

As you say I think James Barnes who marrys Mary Jane Livingston is a relative, also Mary Quinn/Wooler is a relative as she takes everyone in to her house, from different generations including adopting a child. Its just nagging me that I can't piece the final bits together, but thats the joy of Family Trees, the hunt!
Thank you everyone.