1851 - Desperate for help!

[ozwendy]

Hi

I put in this request a couple of weeks ago, but I thought it might help to make it a bit clearer

I don't have an address but it is a very small village called Meadowtown, civil parish: Worthen in the Forden/montgomery area of Shropshire. The village only takes up about five pages of the census so it is not too much of a search and I have all the reference numbers.

I am looking for Richard Williams b: 1813 and his wife Elizabeth b: 1811 in 1851:
Piece No: 2498
Folio: 353
Page: 7

I think  Elizabeth is my 4x great-grandmother and believe that Richard could be her second husband, they also have at least one child with them Martha b:1847. I managed to get these reference numbers but have not had access to the page, so if I can find out who else was in the house at that time it might provide the vital clue to confirming the family connection, its too invlved to go into now but it is quite a mystery.

I'd really appreciate help!

 
Cheers
Wendy

[yonderpeasant]

I think it might be in Montgomery wales in 1851.It is one of those places which seem to move counties.Someone fron Montgomery will know.

[Allie]

Hi Wendy,

I cannot find this on my 1851 here.

There are some parts of the Worthen area that are in neither the Shropshire or Montgomery discs.
The area of Pennerley where my family lived seems to be in the same void. That area is not on either disc but I know that the piece number for Pennerley is the same as the one you have posted. At least that is the one I have here on a transcription copy that someone sent me.

Your best bet is to email either the Shropshire archives with these reference numbers and see if they can send you the details or to get a transcription from the Shropshire Family History society.

This is from the 1841 census

Township of Meadowtown

Richard Williams, 20, Lead Miner, Y
Elizabeth Williams, 20, Y
Elizabeth Simmons, 4, Y

Let me know how you get on
Allie

[Lloydy]

Hi Wendy

I have just double checked the 1851 Montgomeryshire census for you, and as Allie said

There are some parts of the Worthen area that are in neither the Shropshire or Montgomery discs

Piece No 2498, is on the disc, but folio 353 is missing.

Churchstoke is folios 188 to 245 then there appears to be a huge jump to Worthen folios 428 to 477 & Forden folios 437 to 465.


Jan

[ozwendy]

Hi

Thank you all very much for your help!

Worthen is a confusing area, in 1851 it is in Shropshire, in 71 it is in Wales and in the rest of the census it is in Shropshire.

Allie thank you for looking up 41, that was great! Although it has added some confusion.

Here is the story -
My 2x great grandfather was Richard Gardner B:1856 in Wentnor.

His parents were Samuel(b:1829 Surrey) and Eliza(b:1837, Worthen) who were married in 1856 in Trelystan (just over the border from Worthen).

I know everything about the family from 1861 onwards, but the info. on Eliza before that is confusing

Apart from living in Wentor in 1861, they lived in Worthen for every other census and always recorded Eliza as being  born there. Samuel died in 1863 and she married two more times.

The confusion comes in finding Eliza's maiden name and parents. (Due to lack of funds and being in Australia I was trying to do it through census etc. before investing in certificates.)

In 1871 Eliza (husband now Ben Wardman) is living at Meadowtown Hill, Worthen. In the next house are Richard (b:1813, North Lydbury) and Elizabeth (b: 1811, Worthen) Williams, In the house with them is Samuel Gardner (Eliza's second son) listed as a grandson.

I can't find the Williams in 1861, but Eliza and Samuel have a Martha Williams (b:1847 in Worthen) living with them. In 1851 Martha aged 4 is living in Meadowtown with Richard and Elizabeth, although I haven't seen the page so I don't know if there is anyone else in in the house.

The only marriage records I can find for Samuel Gardner and an Eliza lists Eliza's surname as Davies, her father being William Davies, the dates of the wedding, the area, Samuel's father and their ages all fit.

I thought maybe, William died and Elizabeth then married Richard Williams There is a marriage in the church in Trelystan in 1838 between an Elizabeth Gough and William Davies were Elizabeth's father is listed as Richard Williams!. There is the possibility that the names were listed the wrong way round. Maybe Eliza was illigitamate, brought up by grandparents or something? There are quite a few marriages in subsequent years between Elizabeth Davies and Richard Williams.

Just as a small thing in every census from 1871 on there is a Thomas Davies and family living either next door or in the same street, he could be a relative, although I know davies is a common name.

I think I will eventually have to give up the detective work, admit defeat, get some patience and wait until I can get some certificates

So Allie, your info. on an Elizabeth Simmonds aged 4, is confusing  as that would be the right age for Eliza, but the name Simmonds has never come into it before. I wondered if you could look at Worthen again in 1841 and see if there are any Eliza Davies or Williams in Meaodwtown?

I'd welcome any ideas, suggestions or info.

Thanks a lot
Wendy

[Lloydy]

I've just had a thought - although I could be completely on the wrong track!!

This is from the 1841 census

Township of Meadowtown

Richard Williams, 20, Lead Miner, Y
Elizabeth Williams, 20, Y
Elizabeth Simmons, 4, Y

Is the Elizabeth Simmons mentioned above NOT a daughter of Richard & Elizabeth Williams.  It would mean that they were both 16 when she was born - did they have children that young in the "old days"   I thought maybe that she was Elizabeth's daughter from a previous relationship but that doesn't seem right either.  I think I'm right in saying that the 1841 census didn't list relationships to the Head of the family.

Jan

[yonderpeasant]

No the relationships are not given.It is not unusual to have a baby or small child farmed out with friends or relatives.There was a lot of poverty and illness around.My own family had a lot of young deaths in childbirth and from TB around this time.

[ozwendy]

Hi

Yonderpeasant and Jan, thanks again for your interest! When you just pointed out the ages of Richard and Elizabeth, I hadn't paid close enough attention, it doesn't really fit as in 1851 they are listed as 38 and 40 respectively, and those ages fit in more closely with 1871 were they are both listed as 60.

Of course there were always mistakes and people giving ages that seemed conveniant for them for some reason?

 Just more confusion

Thanks, Cheers
Wendy

[Allie]

Hi Wendy,

You are right about the 1851 census.

The only other family member on the page you don't know about is a daughter Charlotte aged 6.
All are born in Worthen.

Let me know if you need anything else

Allie