Marriage and births in Leith

[Starry]

I think I confused you with my statement about SP. What I meant was that I had looked for a birth for Marrion, but couldn't as I was unsure if any were her since there were so many.

My problem is that neither the births or Thomas & Elizabeth, nor the marriage of Richard & Marrion is on Scotlands People.

I don't know if Richard and Marrion married in Leith, but Thomas being born there is the only pointer I have as to where it might have happened.

The 2nd daughter was Margaret - Richards parents were Thomas and Elizabeth. I don't have a problem with his side. Thankfully he has a pretty uncommon surname. All my family are English, apart from Marrion so I'm a bit lost in all this. I must've spent 20-odd pounds looking for her.

[Rena]

Every Yorkshire family and every Midlothian, Scotland family I have researched prior to 1900 used the child naming formula I gave you. You only listed 2 children's names - If Richard's mother was indeed called Elizabeth there must have been an older girl called Margaret.  If your Richard & Marian had a son called Frederick, then Marian was born in Edinburgh. 
There were exceptions to this rule where a child was named after a prominent person or the first wife died and the young wife adhered to another custom.

To make a further check on whether you have the correct grandparents, Richard will have named his 4th son after his eldest brother. (Marian will have named her 4th dau. after her eldest sister).

Rena
=

I think I confused you with my statement about SP. What I meant was that I had looked for a birth for Marrion, but couldn't as I was unsure if any were her since there were so many.

My problem is that neither the births or Thomas & Elizabeth, nor the marriage of Richard & Marrion is on Scotlands People.

I don't know if Richard and Marrion married in Leith, but Thomas being born there is the only pointer I have as to where it might have happened.

The 2nd daughter was Margaret - Richards parents were Thomas and Elizabeth. I don't have a problem with his side. Thankfully he has a pretty uncommon surname. All my family are English, apart from Marrion so I'm a bit lost in all this. I must've spent 20-odd pounds looking for her.

[Little Nell]

You might consider Isabella or Isabel as Elizabeth's first name.  They are the same name and in Scotland often interchanged, although I would have thought this time frame and location might have precluded this.  There is one record of a birth of Isabel* Liversedge (using soundex) on Scotlands People in 1857, but I'm afraid I don't know where.

Nell

[Starry]

Hi Rena,
I will list the children in order. As far as I know, there are no others.
Thomas, c1853
Elizabeth, c1855
John William, b1856 Tadcaster, Yorkshire
Richard Cammomile, b1859 d1859 Tadcaster, Yorkshire
Margaret, b1860 Barnard Castle, Durham
James, b1862 Barnard Castle, Durham
Hannah, b1865, Middlesbrough, Yorkshire
Jane, b1870, Middlesbrough, Yorkshire

From your pattern, James should be called John, as this is Richards eldest brother. I honestly don't think they used this pattern.


Nell, thanks for the suggestion. I looked at the Isobel you mentioned, but her surname was LAPRAIK.

Can anyone answer my original query - Can anyone access (or tell me where I can) records for the various churched in Leith that aren't on ScotlandsPeople?

I have spoken to a professional researcher about this, and he suggested looking at Hand-fasting records. I don't know where to find these, so if anyone can tell me where to find them, that would help greatly.

[Rena]

Hi,
In answer to your original question about 'handfasting' - if you look on Scotlandspeople it says they are hoping to put all parish records online sometime during 2006. They've been saying that for the last 2 or 3 years, but when they do appear I'm hoping to find some Leith records I've not been able to locate and neither has the researcher who personally went into the Edinburgh archives to look on my behalf.  I've learned Leith was targetted by the church in the 1800's because of it's poor record of its very irregular marriages.  For this reason I have waited for monumental inscriptions to be published as I think gravestones are the only way I'll be able to piece some families together.

On the scotlandspeople website there is a facility for "contact us" - when I've used the facility I've been led through various 'frequently asked questions" which then led me to a relevant form. When there was no 'relevant' form I used the 'blank' form to contact the archivists. I suggest you ask about the position of any other marriage records on one of the form.
Rena

<<I have spoken to a professional researcher about this, and he suggested looking at Hand-fasting records. I don't know where to find these, so if anyone can tell me where to find them, that would help greatly. >>

[Starry]

Thank you Rena.

I guess it's just gonna be one of those things I might never know. I'll keep my fingers crossed though
Hopefully SP will decide to put them on eventually. Why did they have to go to a church that had poor records? lol

I will check out the contact page on SP.

[Rena]

Hi again:-)
Ref a naming pattern:
I notice that Richard and Marian (Maryann/Miriam) have followed this rule for their 3rd son who was named after its father Richard and they also followed the rule naming their 3rd daughter Hannah which is another form of Ann, hence they kept to the rules of naming 3rd dau after its mother.

As regards James and John, my naming dictionery says this is the same name (you can also add Sean to the list as it also is a derivative of James/John).

If you know James is Richard's brother then you will have checked the offspring of James and compared names of his children?  I had the dickens of a job sorting out 7 Williams when one William had 7 sons and they all named their 1st offspring in honour of their father William, not to mention the William(s) named in honour of older brother William!!! (I forget how many of them married a Mary!!)

Did you locate your Richard as a child in the 1841 census then when he was a bachelor in the 1851 English census? I was wondering if you found Marian in the 1851 English census?  I've just found my 17 yr old gt. grandmother not in East or West Riding of Yorkshire where she should be in 1861 but in Derbyshire working as a servant! - I recognised the unusual given name of the widowed cook who turned out to be her father's cousin also born in WR Yorks.

Cheers,
Rena
-

Hi Rena,
I will list the children in order. As far as I know, there are no others.
Thomas, c1853
Elizabeth, c1855
John William, b1856 Tadcaster, Yorkshire
Richard Cammomile, b1859 d1859 Tadcaster, Yorkshire
Margaret, b1860 Barnard Castle, Durham
James, b1862 Barnard Castle, Durham
Hannah, b1865, Middlesbrough, Yorkshire
Jane, b1870, Middlesbrough, Yorkshire

From your pattern, James should be called John, as this is Richards eldest brother. I honestly don't think they used this pattern.

[Starry]

lol I have the same William problems with a couple of my other families. A couple of them had children in the same year, and the same town and still gave them the same name! That did take some sorting.

I do have Richard in every census. I can only find Marrion 1861 and after. I don't know if there is an 1851 Scottish census around? I have checked all the other British censuses, and she's not there (as far as I can tell!).

[Rena]

BINGO !!!!



1841 census
Piece: SCT1841/692 Place: Leith-Midlothian Enumeration District: 67
Civil Parish: Leith North Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Newhaven
Folio: 19 Page: 15
Address: Lambs Court

 
    Surname   First name(s)   Sex   Age   Occupation   Where Born   Remarks   
    JOHNSTON   John   M   60   Fisherman    Midlothian         
    JOHNSTON   Margt   F   50       Midlothian         
    JOHNSTON   Cather   F   20       Midlothian         
    JOHNSTON   Barbara   F   15       Midlothian         
    JOHNSTON   Marian   F   14       Midlothian         
    JOHNSTON   Joan   F   9       Midlothian         
 Page: 19/16   JOHNSTON   John   M   6   Fisherman    Midlothian     

HAPPY NEW YEAR :-)
Rena

lol I have the same William problems with a couple of my other families. A couple of them had children in the same year, and the same town and still gave them the same name! That did take some sorting.

I do have Richard in every census. I can only find Marrion 1861 and after. I don't know if there is an 1851 Scottish census around? I have checked all the other British censuses, and she's not there (as far as I can tell!).