What Happened To My Convict?!?

[sparrett]

Hi Donna,
  So we know all children pre-date the wedding - 1868 ( this pre-dating means nothing of course)
Phoebe is 45 when marries Thomas.  Only 4 yrs married before he dies.
Thomas's wife is still alive when they marry.  She died post 1871

Question:  When is the earliest entry for a child using Albon name?  ( excluding Joseph and Sarah Ann whom we are pretty certain are George's)?

On the b. cert. you have listing the chn. of Phoebe and Thomas, could you just clarify - does it list the offspring of Thom. and Phoebe as individuals OR clearly as joint parents??

Mary is a new name.  Is there anything to show when she was born?  By the order you have listed the chn.,  she seems to pre-date Joseph.  She is another mystery.
The Tas archive info will be good because it will show us when Thomas was free from his convict "  life sentence "to come to Vic and start producing children, if in fact he did.
  Does anyone know anything about the term "Life" in a convict sentence?
How short could it be?

Oooooh!  I do love a good convict hunt!!   Sue

[JAP]

Hello again Donna,

Goodness me!  Thomas and Phoebe certainly knew how to make life difficult for future genealogists - their certificates must just about set a record for the number of fabrications     One wonders why, when they married, Phoebe actually gave her correct married and maiden names!

Unfortunately I don't have access to the Vic Pioneer Index or I would look for the death of George (or Joshua) JUDD - though it might well have been before civil registration.  As, it seems, were the births of Eliza, David and Emma before we come to the two ABLON children - John Thomas b & d 1860, Alfred William b & d 1863.

One feels that there must be quite a story behind the adoption of the ABLON name by the JUDD children, and their citing of Thomas as their father even though we know for sure that is not true for Joseph and Sarah Ann at least.  Well, perhaps Thomas was in Victoria for as long as (or nearly as long as) he says.  And perhaps Phoebe took up with him not long after her 1849 arrival - so Joseph and Sarah Ann might always have believed that Thomas was their father and perhaps he actually was Emma's father.  Though, if this were the case, one would perhaps have expected some more ABLON children between the start of civil registration (1 Jul 1853) and John Thomas's birth in 1860 ...

I do hope that the Tasmanian Archives come up with some useful information.

All the best,

JAP

[gennig]

Question:  When is the earliest entry for a child using Albon name?  ( excluding Joseph and Sarah Ann whom we are pretty certain are George's)?

John Thomas born 1860 is the earliest.  The others were not registered.

Donna - Which children are listed on Thomas' death certificate? 

The Tas archive info will be good because it will show us when Thomas was free from his convict "  life sentence "to come to Vic and start producing children, if in fact he did.
  Does anyone know anything about the term "Life" in a convict sentence?
How short could it be?

Have we establish what sentence Thomas got.

In 1827 the 1st Qualification in obtaining a TOL (Ticket of Leave) of about 16.

Period of transportation - 7 Years Having served four years with one master, or five years with two
Period of Transportation - 14 years Having served Six years with one master, eight years with two, or ten years with three.
Period of Transportation - Life Having served Eight years with one master; ten years with two, or twelve years with three  .

Found out today the 'Lady Nugent' went from Hobart to Port Jackson. 

Cheers
Genni

[sparrett]

Hi Genni,
So 'Life' could be something between 8 & 12 years?

The reason I say that was his sentence is that Donna mentioned during a PM exchange that Thomas was originally sentenced in Eng to Death and this was reduced to Life as a transportee.

I may well have misunderstood her and we will no doubt hear from her to clarify the issue in due course.

It is  possible ,as Jap points out, that he had been in Victoria for the number of years stated on his death  certificate (25).  Wonder who gave that information at his death.  It would place his 'release date' around 1847 - a nice round 10 years.    Ah, a tricky man this one!  Sue   

[gennig]

With regards to George/Joshua JUDD.

Following from the indexes:-

George JUDD died 1856 (born Wil) aged 44
and
Joshua JUDD married Elizabeth LEWIS 1863.


Genni

[sparrett]

Hi Genni,
Facsinating.  Makes it worse not better.
Where is Wil?
Williamstown, Victoria -  and he is nothing to do with our George. Or Wiltshire Uk? 

The real Joshua was married to Ph. in Saffron Waldron, Essex.  There seem to be a few Judds in that district.

Don't know what to think.  Any notions?  Sue

[Ratty]

Morning Everyone!

Sue, on the birth cert. thereis under the FATHER column a sub heading 'where and when married, issue living and deceased'.  Now that to me suggests that those named would be at the very least all the fathers children but certainly the issue of the couple.  Mind you looking again with the magnifying glass it also says that homas married Phoebe in 1845 in Chrisall, Essex!!!!!  Did these people ever tell the truth?

Also I had another look at Phoebe and Thomas's marr. cert. and under where it says widow for Phoebe it also says 1851.  That obviously would suggest that Judd died then...of course nothing else seems to add up on these certificates so that might be totally wrong as well!  If it is true though then it would indicate that Emma was a natural child of the couple as she was born c1853.....unless of course Phoebe was with someone else after Judd and before Thomas. 

As for the life sentence, then yes it was changed to life after an appeal.  The original verdict was death.  Thomas and two others had gone for a spot of poaching when they were caught by the gamekeeper.  Thomas who had a gun with him threatened to shoot but when seized took a bludgeon from his pocket and hit the gamekeeper.  The man was not seriously hurt but the three were accused of poaching and assault.  At the trial the jury although saying guilty suggested not a death sentence but the judge who by alll accounts seems to have been a bit of a 'hanging judge' thought otherwise.  The three were sentenced to death but the other two had there sentence changed quite quickly and after further appeals Thomas's was changed as well.

Oh and the other question... the children on Thomas's death cert. are the same as on the birth cert of Alfred William! Although on that the child before Joseph is definately Henry and not Mary as I read on the birth cert.  The names on the birth cert are very very small and hard to decipher so it could very well be Henry and not Mary.

Donna

[JAP]

Hi again Donna - a late afternoon/early evening hello from me,

I like Henry!

Assuming that the marriage of Joshua JUDD - with Phoebe MANSFIELD on the same page - on FreeBMD at Saffron Walden Dec qtr 1841 is the couple, then that fits nicely.

This is because FreeBMD also has the following births at Saffron Walden:
Henry JUDD Jun qtr 1843
Joseph JUDD Sep qtr 1845
Sarah Ann JUDD Sep qtr 1848
(and a few other JUDDs but I'll ignore them as they are not mentioned on the Aus certs).

And FreeBMD has the following death at Saffron Walden:
Henry JUDD Sep qtr 1844

JAP

[Ratty]

Afteroon then Jap

Wish it was afternoon here....I'd have finished work instead of having to go off and do some in a while!

Looks like it's definately Henry then.  Makes a change to actually be fairly certain about something!

Donna