Lipmans of Aldgate

[MacGrigor]

Hello,

My name is Adam, and my mother was a Lipman. Her branch is a Christian (C of E) branch, with the last seemingly-Jewish Lipman being my great-great-grandfather, Benjamin, who married Mary Ann Sands in 1873. His mother's maiden name was Franks, so it's likely he was either culturally or religiously Jewish. The Lipmans had lived in Aldgate since they came to England, and Benjamin was the first to leave, with his children growing up in Mile End, Shoreditch, West Ham and Forest Gate. His great-grandfather married at the Great Synagogue in 1798, and his father, Isaac Lipman, is listed on various sites as being from either Germany or Poland. Does anyone have any information on Isaac and his forebears, or anything on the Lipman family as a whole?

Thanks,

Adam McGregor

[JustinL]

Hello Adam,

I'm eager to help you as we have the common link that my ancestors were originally Jewish, but my great-grandfather married out in 1878.

I have tried to follow your explanation of the Lipman generations, but I have to confess that you have lost me.

Benjamin Lipman
His parents: Moses Lipman and Rosetta Franks, m. 1844
His grandparents: Lewis Lipman and Mary ?, m. c1820
His great-grandfather Michael, Philip or Mordechai?, m. 1798 in Great Synagogue; father referred to as isaac Partir
His 2nd ggf  Isaac Lipman aka Isaac Partir, m. Frances Moses Gomport in GS

I have spreadsheet registers of all the marriages in the Great, Hambro and New Synagogues covering the late 18th century to the middle of the 19th century.

Do you possess a record of the 1798 wedding?
How do you know the names of Isaac's and Frances's sons?
How do you know the name of Lewis's father without a marriage record?

Justin

[MacGrigor]

Benjamin's father was Morris, and he was born in 1826. His father was Lewis, born in 1801. His great-grandfather was Michael (1759-1848). I don't know much about Mordecai and Philip. I have viewed a digital copy of the 1798 marriage, through a site which I don't recall. It was yesterday, but as a new member I learnt a lot!

What do you know of Isaac Partir? I can't find a translation for Partir. He is estimated to have been born in 1735, in either Germany or Poland, making him the last foreign-born Lipman in my tree. I know nothing of his parentage.

Perhaps we could exchange email addresses for the records of the Great Synagogue? Lewis is reported to have married in 1820, though I am yet to find a record. His wife's maiden name is not given. She is named as Mary or Maria interchangeably. I am also not sure where Morris married. His wife has a Jewish surname, but I don't know if the married at a synagogue. All I get is City of London. Anyway, Benjamin married a non-Jew in 1873, and since then there has been no Judaism in my family. My grandad feels fully English, and I confess that I do too. Neither of us have been exposed to the religion. I don't know if Benjamin was raised Jewish (if not, he was culturally Jewish), or if he converted to Christianity by the time of the wedding, allowed his children to be brought up in a different faith etc. My great-grandfather was not interested in the pomp of weddings, so there's a chance he was raised irreligious.

Thanks,

Adam

[JustinL]

Hi Adam,

You really need to retrace your steps to find it.

The marriage in the GS on 7 Feb 1798 was between Levy Jacob and Sarah Elias

Levy's Hebrew/Yiddish name was Lipman son of Isaac Partir.

The Jews of London has fixed surnames by this stage. I regard it as highly unlikely, to the point of impossible, that this man was Michael Lipman. Beware of trees on ancestry that do not present any supporting documentation!

There was a Michael Lipman, but he married in 1825.

Unless you have a record showing Lewis Lipman's full Hebrew/Yiddish name, such as a Jewish marriage certificate (ketuba) or a perhaps a picture of his gravestone, it is very difficult to determine the identity of his father. The pattern of names given to the children may hold some clues.

Can you tell me the names of Morris's children?

I cannot readily find marriage records for either Lewis or Morris, which is a bit disappointing. You should go ahead and order Morris's marriage certificate.

The question of formal conversion is one that I have often pondered and have never come to a conclusion. All I can say is that my Jewish great-grandfather married his Protestant English bride in a fairly obscure church out in Sydenham.

[MacGrigor]

Thanks for all this. Morris only had two children: Benjamin, and a daughter who's name I forget. Think it was Sarah.

[MacGrigor]

Michael Lipman died in 1848, at the age of 89. His wife died in the 1850s I think. She was born in St. Leonard's.

[JustinL]

How do you know that your Lewis was in any way related to that Michael Lipman or any other?

I've been doing Jewish genealogy for about 15 years. As with all genealogy, one cannot just link individuals with the same surname together.

[MacGrigor]

Lewis was definitely the father of Morris (1841 Census), but his connection to Lewis is based off of various websites and online genealogies. Perhaps not the best way.

[JustinL]

Hi Adam,

I'm not questioning that Morris was the son of Lewis Lipman, but rather who were Lewis's parents.

There were a couple of Lipman families (possibly related, who knows) in London at the time. However, careful methodical research is required to determine Lewis's forebearers. I have seen a couple of trees on ancestry that have just unquestioningly decided that he was the son of a Michael Lipman. That may be the case. However, I cannot find any evidence to support the assertion.

It would beneficial if you were to establish whether Morris's siblings married.

Justin