Jane Tindall

[majm]

Don't panic,  I think between us all, we will at least be eliminating some of the earlier sightings for you.

 

JM

[Jan Prit]

Good Morning majm  thanks for your help I may have the burial of Jane after she married a Charles Palmer, my room is in a mess and need to sort out a few things, I am sure their is no parents listed for her. I am starting to think she maybe a Alien.

Regards,
Janet

[judb]

Looking for a siognature but nothing so far.

However I've found a couple of bits for you - nothing about Jane though.

You will recall that I put up baptisms in Reply #42 with parents Daniel and Jane

At St Olave, Bermondsey Southwark
1795 Daniel TINDELL,
1797 Mary 

And at St George the Martyr, Southwark,
1799 Charles,
1802 Jane,

I've found some Land Tax records which would fit.

Vine St, parish of St George the Martyr, Southwark
1803 and 1804
Tenant: Dan'l TINDALL, Vine Yard sum assessed 11shillings  8pence (this is quite a large sum, most of the others dwellings are less although a timber yard and a cow yard are higher)
Proprietor:   Bullock - Taylor A Braker In Blankman Street

There are some earlier ones but the spelling is TINDLE and they are in Tower Hamlets which is the other side of the Thames, so I don't think they are relevant.

Vine St is still there on Googlemap but it's all modern buildings. It's near the tube station of Borough.  The church of St George the Martyr is also still there.

Judith

Perhaps you're right, Janet - she is an alien.  Seriously, you may never find her with certainty.  We're looking for records over 200 years old which may have been lost and anyway contain less information than that required today.  For example the marriage which MAY be Daniel and Jane does not have any address, no parent names, no ages, no occupations, so we can't be sure either way.  The only thing it does have is a signature of the groom so we could compare that IF we could find any other document signed by Daniel.

[majm]

There was a petition from Daniel to the NSW Governor, 1 Dec 1817.   I have contacted a friend who has concentrated their research on the Col Sec papers to see if the document is in the hand of one of the usual petition scribes who earnt their living at scribing in Sydney Town in that era...  and also a petition when a carpenter in Castlereagh St, in Sept 1824 ... I have not yet heard back, they are retired and may be grey nomadding  .   I sent them a link to this thread,  and suggested they would be great asset to RChat   

Col Sec papers...  http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/t/F56c_ti-ty-02.htm#P898_29196 

ADD
Fingers crossed there will be Daniel as signature at least        Then there's the experts on RChat's handwriting board who will see if in same hand, even though there's couple of decades between marriage and NSW docs which may well be digitised and viewable on Ancestry.   

JM

[Jan Prit]

Thanks again majm and JM, When I first started this search of this family, I searched through CD's of Surrey marriages, I found one entry of a marriage between Samuel Jane and Ann at Kingston Upon Thames the year 1768. The other entry was for a John Jane and Ann Perry marriage 20/9/1774 Farnham Surrey, I haven't yet searched baptisms if they had a daughter named Amelia Jane (Jane) this was the first hint of Daniel Tindall's marriage in the beginning, now it seems to have taken a turn of just anybody, Jane Davies, Jane Sawyer, Amelia Jane Doyle (this one I can't find) truthfully no one really knows, like a stab in the dark even the Tindall ancestors who lived in Liverpool N.S.W. just enter anything. I think that I will move on to another ancestor and have a break from this family.

Regards,
Janet

[Jang]

Thanks to JM for pointing out this thread. Sorry, I don't know much about the Tindale/Tindalls - my interest is in Wybrow - but you can eliminate the John Tindall who married Mary Wybrow from your family.

Mary Wybrow was the daughter of convicts William Wybrow (Ganges, 1797) and Elizabeth Clark (aka Crookshank) (Speke, 1808). Elizabeth left her husband and lived with a John Tindall at Penrith from about 1820 and had at least six children with him between 1821 and 1830.

Mary Wybrow married her stepbrother, John Richard Tindall, in 1830. I was told that he was born in St Leonard, Shoreditch, London, England on 13 November 1809, the first child of John William Tindale (circa 1789-1857) and Susannah Emma Manwaring (circa 1780-1828). He died on 6 June 1872 in New Town Tasmania.

John senior was convicted of having forged banknotes in his possession and arrived on the "Guildford" in 1812.

Jan

[majm]

At #33 I am sure I have explained that Amelia Jane is a different person from Jane -  Amelia Jane was the first wife of Charles PALMER, and after her death, Charles married the widow Jane TINDALL.   

If this were my family tree, I would be satisfied that Amelia Jane was the mother of Sabina PALMER and the other children listed on the 1825 Muster,  I can see that the C of E records Chas PALMER’s wife as Mary Ann, while the Wesleyan records have transcribed her given names as Amelia, Athelia, Athemia, and Emelia.  See below:

From the 1820 Richmond NSW population book, and the image that the NSW State Archives has allowed Ancestry to upload:
Chas PALMER has at his location :
Mary Ann PALMER, c.f. (came free)
Sabina PALMER (c.f.)
Athelia PALMER b.c. (born in the colony)

1825 Muster at C. PALMER,  at Richmond, Sydney
Mrs A PALMER, c.f.  (dead) wife of C Palmer
Sabina PALMER, 25, b.c.  and the others as listed below noted are bracketed together as children  of C Palmer
Althelia PALMER, 23, b.c.
Almeriah PALMER, 19 b.c.
Matilda PALMER, 9, b.c.
Euphemia PALMER, 13, b.c.

From the baptismal record for Matilda PALMER, 
Matilda, daughter of Charles and Athelia PALMER, he a farmer, was born 2 March 1816 and baptised 30 October 1827, by Rev G Erskine at Windsor, Wesley rites.  The Rev Erskine then transmitted the information to Rev John Cross who registered the baptism in the register of St Matthews C of E, Windsor.

http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/erskine-george-27963

The NSW governor, Lachlan Macquarie, issued a general order in 1810 that required clergy of any denomination to transmit details of baptisms and burials (and marriages in a separate general order) to the NSW Chaplains.   Many times when going through the C of E records in the years until civil registration commenced in 1856, you can find where other denominations transmitted their records via C of E parish registers.   Several of my NSW ancestors baptisms were Wesleyan and these are findable at NSW BDM online index, one has five entries, as it was at a remote locality and by a Wesleyan,  and then transmitted several times, eventually arriving at Rev W Cowper's  C of E, Sydney. 

NSW State Archives has some archival material in one of their briefs, and the Paracensus of 1828 by James Donoghue has details too, and several other recognised published genealogists have written on this too.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/628150 Govt Gaz 22 December 1810

.....HIS EXCELLENCY at the same time enjoins the said Principal and Assistant Chaplains, as an Act of reciprocal benefit to all Classes of the Society, to keep or cause to be kept exact Registers of all Marriages, Christenings, Churching of Women, and Funerals which they may in future perform, and make a correct Return thereof once in every Quarter, to the Secretary's Office at Sydney; and said Registers are required to contain the Marriages, Christenings, Churchings, and Funerals, as well of all Convicts and Prisoners as of Free Persons ....


JM

[Jan Prit]

Good Morning majm, thanks for your reply but I was referring to the Daniel Tindall born 1758 Egham Surrey England, he died 28/1/1827 Castlereagh N.S.W. He married a Amelia Jane (Jane) 1794 Southwark Surrey England, she was born 1777/1779 England and died 12/8/1854 Liverpool N.S.W.

Regards,
Janet

[majm]

Yes,  I am referring to that same Jane.

The first wife of Charles PALMER was Amelia.  When Charles next married, he, a widower, married Jane, a widow.  That second wife was clearly named on that NSW marriage as Jane TINDALL and her headstone for her 1854 death gives confirmation that she had been twice married.

Daniel died January 1827 in Castlereagh St, SYDNEY and buried Devonshire St Cemetery, reinterred to Liverpool in 1901

Hi there is a record on NSW State Archives site

regarding re internment at Liverpool

" Devonshire Street Cemetery Reinterment Index, 1901"

TINDALL   Daniel   Date of Death 28/01/1827   Reinterred    Liverpool

Cass

Just did a search on Trove search on "ALL" records and there is a record of a photo of Jane TINDALL's    headstone at Liverpool
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/209769660?q=daniel+tindall&c=picture&versionId=230247080

also includes links to death notices of family members. Records Jane's siblings as John, Richard, James and William BULL

Wonder who submitted this:

Tindall Daniel 16 Mar 1795 25 Jul 1876 81 son/Daniel & Amelia Jane (Doyle); b. Southwark, Middlesex, England; h/Jane (Bull) Liverpool Pioneer Memorial Park NSW

Jamjar

I think whoever put it up has got themselves all confused:

http://austcemindex.com/family-tree?id=15837541

If I’m understanding this correctly, it is saying that JANE, is Amelia Jane Doyle who married a Charles Palmer before she married Daniel Tindall, or that she married Palmer after Daniel’s death.

2276/1854 PALMER JANE V18542276 41A AGE 77

Added: 800/1829 V1829800 13 PALMER CHARLES to TINDALL JANE CJ

Well,  errr .... 2 August 1829, Charles PALMER aged 50, a Widower, and a farmer, of Castlereagh St (Sydney) married the widow, Jane TINDALL. NO mention of Jane's nee name, or her ship of arrival, or her witnesses, or the name of her deceased husband, etc in my resources.  Sorry.  BUT on one of the ROSSITER records,  there's a Charles Palmer and and Emelia Palmer 
...

A bit of a side track but it may help sort some PALMER thingys…
May 1826, Castlereagh C of E
Edward STACK, Free, of St James, Sydney married Sabina PALMER, free, of Evan. Witnesses were Charles PALMER and Emelia PALMER both of Evan, and BOTH of Sabina’s parents gave their consent to her marriage.

So, Daniel TINDALL died in January 1827, and as Charles and Emelia (assuming this is Amelia Jane) are husband and wife, with a daughter old enough to marry, but not yet of full age, and that lass marries in May 1826 …

So it seems to me that Amelia Jane DOYLE and Mrs Jane TINDALL are two separate people.

JM

There is  1795 baptism record for :
Daniel TINDELL, 19 April 1795
at St Olave, Bermondsey, Southwark, Surrey   
Parents: Daniel, (carpenter), Jane

This date matches with the age of Daniel Tindall Junr, died 25th. July 1876, aged 81

There is no mention of the name Amelia'
Another child baptised at St Olaves has the same parents and father's occupation
Mary, born 4 May , baptised May 28, 1797

And at St George the Martyr, Southwark, same parent names but no occupation shown for the father
Charles, born 6 April baptised 6 October, 1799
Jane, b 27 March, baptised 15 April 1802

Judith

I cannot find any record of Daniel TINDALL marrying Amelia DOYLE.     I can see around 30 submitted trees that claim that Daniel's wife was Amelia Jane Doyle. 

Has any of those researching Jane, wife of Daniel Tindall Senior, actually checked for the details of Charles PALMER's first wife, whose first wife is actually recorded on several NSW records as Amelia?  I suspect that the confusion has occurred when someone has assumed Charles PALMER had only ONE wife, and they have combined the given names Amelia (his first wife) and Jane (his second wife)...  Perhaps Charles first wife was Amelia DOYLE 

 In around 1810ish Governor Macquarie named FIVE towns : Castlereagh, Pitt Town, Richmond, Wilberforce and Windsor. Daniel TINDALL died in Castlereagh St, Sydney Town, this is not anywhere near Castlereagh, which is out near Richmond where Charles Palmer's rural property was located. Charles Palmer and Daniel TINDALL both had Sydney Town addresses in Castlereagh St, Sydney (now one of the main streets in Sydney CBD). 

JM