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Messages - rossko57

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1
Midlothian / Re: Edinburgh - Dundas Street
« on: Wednesday 01 November 23 15:52 GMT (UK)  »
Decades later ... and no great contribution. I have a newspaper report of a marriage -

newspaper Edinburgh Evening News issue 19 Mar 1928
MARRIAGE.
FREE - DICKSON. - At the Dundas Rooms, on 17th March, by the Rev. R. W. Leekie, Davidson's Mains, VINCENT F. FREE, son of Mr and Mrs FREDERICK FREE, 19 The Village, Cramond, to ANNIE, oldest daughter of the late ROBERT DICKSON, Milwaukee, U.S.A., and Mrs Dickson, 81, Morrison Street, Edinburgh


So "Dundas Rooms" looks like a venue.  I do not think Dundas Castle would be possible (unlike nowadays), nor Dundas House (a bank at this time).  So I'm guessing an establishment (like a supper rooms) in Dundas Street, which seems to tally with earlier messages.

2
World War Two / Re: ATS service records
« on: Thursday 07 May 20 02:24 BST (UK)  »
I looked at Spurn Point "derelict" stuff, great piccies.

But it mentions only anti-shipping coastal battery features.   Confused me, my Mum (Muriel Wheeler) only ever spoke of AA batteries.  I'm sure these are chalk and cheese specialities for gunners.  Thinks; posting for cross training, or just as dogsbody, or?

I did more poking, found no historical reference to AA on Spurn ... except this wonderful little tidbit from 2002.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/33/a2801233.shtml
where an ATS lady describes her AA service ... and it seems they trained, operated and deployed as a mobile battery.  I did not appreciate this!   But it does make sense for AA units.  Mum did talk of several sites and I imagined individual postings, but not the whole battery swanning about!

She further mentions - a "practice camp" at Spurn Point!   And finally, in listing some remembered names - my late Mum.  Plus another lady I remember Mum kept in touch with - Jean McMillan.
I think I can now make a good guess at Mum's unit - 497 (M)HAA
M for Mobile I assume, Heavy Anti Aircraft for sure.

No mention of Peggy Page, but I would expect several different mobile AA batteries would have been on and off Spurn over time, by the sounds of it.
Or perhaps the coastal gunners had ATS as well, maybe more likely for a lengthy posting.  So far as I can find out, the coastal battery was manned by Royal Artillery as well, not a Navy or Marines outfit.  Maybe it just seemed lengthy on that windswept sandbar  :)

3
Lawyers throwing Latin about, I would say the guess that 3tio is equivalent to third is good (would tritio be appropriate here?)

4
Great photos here of cadets at 'private' maritime colleges.  Some would go on to careers in merchant shipping, some to the Navy.   Apparently standard practice to make all lads sign up to RN Reserve.
http://www.pandosnco.co.uk/cadets.html

Doesn't help a great deal here, but notable in the older c.1900 photos are the cadet uniforms - very navy of course, but some details differ from official "Cadet RN".
Cap badges similar to RN, not identical.
TS Worcester lads in particular have no collar insignia that you'd find on RN (see other colleges)

5
She was a very brave lady to be seen wearing a swimming costume like that,

I've seen (but don't possess) a photo of my grandmother in an equally racy swimsuit, she told me  they were knitted.  Rather like a modern T-shirt, and yes exactly the same effect when wet.  The more modest wore a chemise underneath, like I think these ladies are, but it didn't help much, so not all the gals bothered.

And the dashing gentleman of the period wore similar, she continued wistfully ...

6
Detail here on the many Portsmouth forts and units who manned them
https://www.victorianforts.co.uk/rga.htm

Sorting out which were regular/volunteer units looks tricky.
With the navy connections, be aware of Marine artillery (RMA) units existence too.

EDIT - this looks a likely militia unit for dockyard men
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Wessex_Artillery
2nd Hampshire (2nd Hants) Artillery Volunteers (AV)
AKA
1st Volunteer (Hampshire) Brigade, Southern Division, Royal Artillery (SDRA)


Not a gunner or marine uniform in the photo, mind!  This carpenter is an interesting chap.

7
Yup, identical insignia, ratings got HMCS on their hatbands but I do not think officers got 'CANADA' on their shoulders until the 1920s

Any of these guys could have been reservists and left a paper trail there, but photo makes no more sense as reservist than as regular navy.  Just offering an option for an essentially civilian dock worker to pose in uniform.
Photo makes no sense as civilian crew either, those damnable cuffs are out of place!

'little' background (270 pages!), a thesis around social history of edwardian Portsmouth Royal Dockyard workers
https://researchportal.port.ac.uk/portal/files/5795106/Mel_Bassett_108964_Doctoral_Thesis_Final_Submission.pdf
Tidbit found : seems that in 1906 at least, Admiralty barred established dockyard workers from volunteering for reserves.  That indicates enough had done so already to cause worry, although many would be militia rather than naval.  Boer war period.

340 pages on dockyard workforce
https://eprints.soton.ac.uk/361129/1/87081318.pdf
including a sailmaker section

8
We should also give some consideration, Canada had a navy too.  In fact the same imperial navy until 1910, then a short lived Naval Service of Canada, before RCN proper.  And of course dockyards with an appetite for already skilled men. (providing repair yard capability for RN on both coasts)
Is this a possible post-emigration career?
So far as I can make out, uniform would be standard RN.  Fiddling with regulation uniform might be a bit more likely "out thar".

A photo to home may then have been copied in UK before onward transmission to Oz.  (Leaving the Grays mystery)

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I'm looking into the possibility of being a reservist while in fulltime dockyard employ.  Seems like something they might prohibit - when you need the reserve, you want full dockyard crew as well.
Reserve officer insignia are usually obvious, wavy rings or different colour collar tabs - but we seem to have a possible officer type with no rings to make wavy.  How would you mark that out I wonder.

9
Arr .. but .. there are no RN regulations permitting vertical braid at the cuffs.  (I would guess we are looking at 1897-1910 regs here).  The regs call the usual rings "lace", gold braid to non-tailors like me.  The key thing is every last man in the maritime world knew these were to be applied as rings around the sleeve.  To be clear, those are not RN rank indicators.
Potentially some local significance ("best in class", "most senior dockyard chippy") but that would be a real stretch against regulations.
Setting that weirdness aside for a mo ...

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The style of jacket is entirely consistent with RN, and coastguard etc.  And of course with any number of nautical civilian orgs and companies who took RN as their fashion leader.  And any amount of ex-RN men who went to a civvy job and used their old togs with rank stripped and buttons (probably) changed.

if he were RN, we can say that the eight-button layout is consistent only with an officer.  That would include Warrant Officer ranks, but not petty officers.  Officers of course get rings, or collar tabs for midshipmen/cadets.  So, to the exception ...

I've seen in 1897 regs that two of the then three types of W/O (Boatswain and Gunner) are given a ring at the cuff.  Significantly, the Carpenter is not included there.  Interpretation is that he doesn't get a ring, and we seem to have photo proof of that in the posed photo of the three pipe-smoking W/O.

So our photo man could be a Carpenter by his buttons-and-no-ring combination.  Carpenter, whose job is essentially caring for the fabric of the ship, would be a likely career path for a dockyard man.
But only if his buttons and cap badge are RN of course.   I'm unconvinced by the crown-only reading of that, but it's a bigger stretch still to make it into the W/Os expected anchor with oak leaves and crown topper.

More but - a W/O comes up from the lower ratings, via petty officer, and would be a man of 15-20 years experience.  Our fellow looks too young?

We must remember that Navy family links add confusion when we look at old census records; words like carpenter, shipwright, blacksmith we recognise as skills/trades for civilians or sailors/dockyard types. But for RN they are also specific ranks.  An RN Carpenter in the ironclad navy may not have much history of woodworking; a woodworking sailor may hold some other rank; a dockyard chippy may be a civilian or not.  What would these guys write on various forms?  "depends"

It'd be nice to make this man into one of the navy family, but we're not there yet.  Pinning the cap badge down would be a huge step.

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I'm confident now this photo is NOT the eventual Fleet Paymaster.  To get to those lofty heights, he would have to sign up as Cadet or Assistant Clerk, embryo officers with eight buttons indeed but with collar tabs or cuff ring; nor is the photo any rank inbetween.

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