1
London and Middlesex / Re: The area of Marylebone
« on: Saturday 19 October 19 09:33 BST (UK) »
Thanks all for your thoughts on this.
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2
London and Middlesex / Re: The area of Marylebone
« on: Tuesday 15 October 19 10:29 BST (UK) »
If you're talking trains then yes, too early. Although coach transport was available i'm still wondering why Marylebone in particular? The people involved were not wealthy so it would also have added to the cost of the marriage unless, maybe, there was an incentive or dispensation?
3
London and Middlesex / The area of Marylebone
« on: Monday 14 October 19 14:42 BST (UK) »
Does anyone know any reason why people may have come to Marylebone specifically from country areas? I have quite a few ancestors who married there between 1740 and 1850 even though they lived in villages like Pinner, Harefield and even Fletching, Sussex. Could there have been some kind of incentive to marry there?
4
London and Middlesex / Re: South Londoners buried at Manor Park.
« on: Wednesday 16 August 17 07:10 BST (UK) »
Yes, in 1871 John & Emma Hopkins with John 1 and Charlotte 8 were at 132 East St. Walworth. William & Susan (nee Forrest) Goodman were at 5 Sandford Row, Newington only a few streets away wiith their kids including my G-G'father William James Goodman 9 who would later take back the Forrest name. The 1881 census you speak of is interesting because the Head of household at 39 Clandon St is Ann Forrest 66. She is Susan Forrests mother. Not far away at 9 Pleasant Row, Newington lived William & Susan Goodman with my G-G'fater
William 18 and notably Charlotte Hopkins 16 (Servant). Going back to John & Emma Hopkins this is what i've found so far.
1838. John Hopkins is born in Bedford Street, Walworth about now according to 1871 & 1881 census he was aged 32 and 43.
1843. 1Q Emma Maria Eaton is born in New Kent Road area, maiden name Banner. She has John Hopkins children but I can't find a marriage. On my earlier post i had Eden and Eaton together thinking they may be the same person but now apparently not.
Below are GRO births for Hopkins, problem is i don't know who Barker is.
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HOPKINS, HENRY BARKER
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 13
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HOPKINS, ELIZABETH MARTHA BARKER
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 4
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HOPKINS, CHARLOTTE BARKER
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 12
Births below are a match for the 1881 census John & Emma Hopkins at 39 Clandon St with the Forrest's.
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HOPKINS, JOHN EATON
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in NEWINGTON NOW SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 263
HOPKINS, MARIA EATON
GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in ST SAVIOUR'S SURREY Volume 01D Page 123
HOPKINS, THOMAS EATON
GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 147
HOPKINS, MARY ANN EATON
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 170
HOPKINS, SARAH ANN EATON
GRO Reference: 1878 S Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 139
HOPKINS, EMMA EATON
GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in ST SAVIOURS SURREY Volume 01D Page 118
HOPKINS, JOSEPH EATON
GRO Reference: 1882 D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 149
Death Results:
Name: Age at Death (in years):
HOPKINS, SARAH 1
GRO Reference: 1878 M Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR Volume 01D Page 22
In a nutshell the only birth for Charlotte Cable is 3Q 1864 Newington parents Walter & Elizabeth nee Eden.
Chalottes marriage in 1884 states her fathers names is John (deceased). If Walter also had the name John, he's still alive.
Charlotte Hopkins is roughly the same age Charlotte Cable/ Caple.
Who is Barker who gave birth to Charlotte Hopkins in 1861 and is she the same Charlotte as in the census?
William 18 and notably Charlotte Hopkins 16 (Servant). Going back to John & Emma Hopkins this is what i've found so far.
1838. John Hopkins is born in Bedford Street, Walworth about now according to 1871 & 1881 census he was aged 32 and 43.
1843. 1Q Emma Maria Eaton is born in New Kent Road area, maiden name Banner. She has John Hopkins children but I can't find a marriage. On my earlier post i had Eden and Eaton together thinking they may be the same person but now apparently not.
Below are GRO births for Hopkins, problem is i don't know who Barker is.
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HOPKINS, HENRY BARKER
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 13
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HOPKINS, ELIZABETH MARTHA BARKER
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 4
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HOPKINS, CHARLOTTE BARKER
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 12
Births below are a match for the 1881 census John & Emma Hopkins at 39 Clandon St with the Forrest's.
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HOPKINS, JOHN EATON
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in NEWINGTON NOW SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 263
HOPKINS, MARIA EATON
GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in ST SAVIOUR'S SURREY Volume 01D Page 123
HOPKINS, THOMAS EATON
GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 147
HOPKINS, MARY ANN EATON
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 170
HOPKINS, SARAH ANN EATON
GRO Reference: 1878 S Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 139
HOPKINS, EMMA EATON
GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in ST SAVIOURS SURREY Volume 01D Page 118
HOPKINS, JOSEPH EATON
GRO Reference: 1882 D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 149
Death Results:
Name: Age at Death (in years):
HOPKINS, SARAH 1
GRO Reference: 1878 M Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR Volume 01D Page 22
In a nutshell the only birth for Charlotte Cable is 3Q 1864 Newington parents Walter & Elizabeth nee Eden.
Chalottes marriage in 1884 states her fathers names is John (deceased). If Walter also had the name John, he's still alive.
Charlotte Hopkins is roughly the same age Charlotte Cable/ Caple.
Who is Barker who gave birth to Charlotte Hopkins in 1861 and is she the same Charlotte as in the census?
5
London and Middlesex / Re: South Londoners buried at Manor Park.
« on: Monday 14 August 17 10:02 BST (UK) »
Thank you all for your replies, i think it's now established that the burials had nothing to do with any possible Jewishness. All other family from that period were buried locally at Camberwell or Nunhead. I agree Jewishness is not Jumping out at us here and i have no other evidence apart from family stories passed down, there is nobody left from that generation to ask now.
With regard to Charlotte Cable/Caple i've been trying to find her roots for a long time without success. I'm sure i haven't posted here before
but apologies in advance if somebody finds anything.
That birth, at the GRO, of Charlotte Cable was 14th July 1864, Woods buildings, Walworth. Parents Walter and Emma (nee Eden). Source, birth cert.
The GRO shows an earlier, 2Q 1863, birth and death of Emma, maiden name Eaton. So i tried going down that path but couldn't find a related marriage of Cable/ Caple/ Cappell/Eden/Eaton
The only Walter Cable marriage i can find for that period was 2Q 1865 to Elizabeth Pope in Bermondsey. Checking child births and census suggests to me they were not Charlottes parents. Walter died 1894 in Camberwell.
My g'mother Charlotte Caple (as it is spelt on the marriage cert) says her fathers name was John Caple (deceased). That was dated 5th May 1884, she was aged 20. I have searched through dozens of John Caple/Cable records but can't link any of them to Charlotte. I'm currently looking into the possibility that Charlotte Hopkins 16 on the 1881 census, and working for the Goodmans may have something to do with all this. I can't find Charlotte Cable before her marriage and no conclusive Charlotte Hopkins after it. Also my previous posts re children born with maiden name Forrest gets confused with the Hopkins name on a couple of records which i can't explain.
With regard to Charlotte Cable/Caple i've been trying to find her roots for a long time without success. I'm sure i haven't posted here before
but apologies in advance if somebody finds anything.
That birth, at the GRO, of Charlotte Cable was 14th July 1864, Woods buildings, Walworth. Parents Walter and Emma (nee Eden). Source, birth cert.
The GRO shows an earlier, 2Q 1863, birth and death of Emma, maiden name Eaton. So i tried going down that path but couldn't find a related marriage of Cable/ Caple/ Cappell/Eden/Eaton
The only Walter Cable marriage i can find for that period was 2Q 1865 to Elizabeth Pope in Bermondsey. Checking child births and census suggests to me they were not Charlottes parents. Walter died 1894 in Camberwell.
My g'mother Charlotte Caple (as it is spelt on the marriage cert) says her fathers name was John Caple (deceased). That was dated 5th May 1884, she was aged 20. I have searched through dozens of John Caple/Cable records but can't link any of them to Charlotte. I'm currently looking into the possibility that Charlotte Hopkins 16 on the 1881 census, and working for the Goodmans may have something to do with all this. I can't find Charlotte Cable before her marriage and no conclusive Charlotte Hopkins after it. Also my previous posts re children born with maiden name Forrest gets confused with the Hopkins name on a couple of records which i can't explain.
6
London and Middlesex / South Londoners buried at Manor Park.
« on: Sunday 13 August 17 09:42 BST (UK) »
To avoid duplication i have started this thread at the suggestion of another contributor. My original
question was on London and Middlesex »London & Middlesex Lookup Requests
Marriage: Jewish
I'll try to keep it as brief as possible.
I'm trying to find out why a family, which i believe were Jewish, would be buried at Manor Park, Newham when they lived in Southwark and Camberwell. All other lines of my ancestors from this period are buried locally in Camberwell or Nunhead.
23/8/1826 William Goodman marries Charlotte Potter at Christchurch & St. Leonard`s, Foster Lane
Children; Susannah, 1832-1837. Thomas 1834-?. WILLIAM 1838-1883. George 1843-? Susannah
was buried at St. George the Martyr, Southwark, but WILLIAM at Manor Park. I don't know about Thomas or George.
~~~~~~~~-------------
WILLIAM married Susan Forrest 17/9/1866, she had already had William James 6/12/1862 and John 28/9/1864. Baptism record says she was a single woman. John died in 1865 i don't know where he is buried. William James (my gr. g'father) grows up with the Goodman name but when he marries Charlotte Cable/Caple 5/5/1884 he is William Forrest again. (Possibly rejecting William Goodman as his natural father, i don't know.)
William & Charlottes children, 10 died before 1911, these 5 burials are all i can find in Manor Park plus parents.
1890 29 Jan, Charlotte Forrest Aged 3 (Birth maiden name Hopkins?) But the census shows she was this family.
1890 3 Dec, William Forrest aged 0 (Birth maiden name Capel)
1891 21 Oct, James Forrest aged 0 (Birth maiden name Cable)
1892 26 Sep, Thomas Forrest aged 0 (Birth maiden name Cable)
1901 30 Apr, Susan Forrest aged 0 (Birth maiden name Cable)
1912 Charlotte Forrest (nee Cable) aged 48
1914 William Forrest aged 52
~~~~~~~~--------
These are births who either survived to later life or died young but, to the best of my knowledge, were not buried in Manor Park.
1885 4Q William Forrest born & died aged 0, no burial record. (Maiden name Cable on GRO.)
1886 25 Aug Sarah Forrest born (Birth maiden name Capel) Buried Nunhead 1945. (my G'mother))
1894 1Q John Forrest reg'd, born 13 Nov 1893 (maiden name Hopkins?) unknown burial.
1895 1 Apr Alfred Forrest born (maiden name Capel) Buried in New Zealand 1950
1897 2Q Charlotte Forrest born (maiden name Cable) Buried in Clacton. 1976
1902 2Q Emma Forrest born (maiden name Cable). Buried Ealing district 1980
1904 1Q Charles & Robert Forrest born & died aged 0 (maiden name Cable)
both buried 29th Jan Camberwell Old.
1905 2Q Rosina Forrest born (maiden name Cable) died 1966 Hillingdon
1909 4Q William Forrest born (maiden name Cable) died 1986 Lewisham
My parents told me that my grandmother was Jewish, she married a Catholic of Irish descent which did not please her parents at the time.
The Forrest and Hopkins families were very close, even in the same house on some census. I can't find Charlotte Cables baptism or presence on any census before she married. I even suspect Charlotte Hopkins and Charlotte Cable may be the same person but can't prove it.
question was on London and Middlesex »London & Middlesex Lookup Requests
Marriage: Jewish
I'll try to keep it as brief as possible.
I'm trying to find out why a family, which i believe were Jewish, would be buried at Manor Park, Newham when they lived in Southwark and Camberwell. All other lines of my ancestors from this period are buried locally in Camberwell or Nunhead.
23/8/1826 William Goodman marries Charlotte Potter at Christchurch & St. Leonard`s, Foster Lane
Children; Susannah, 1832-1837. Thomas 1834-?. WILLIAM 1838-1883. George 1843-? Susannah
was buried at St. George the Martyr, Southwark, but WILLIAM at Manor Park. I don't know about Thomas or George.
~~~~~~~~-------------
WILLIAM married Susan Forrest 17/9/1866, she had already had William James 6/12/1862 and John 28/9/1864. Baptism record says she was a single woman. John died in 1865 i don't know where he is buried. William James (my gr. g'father) grows up with the Goodman name but when he marries Charlotte Cable/Caple 5/5/1884 he is William Forrest again. (Possibly rejecting William Goodman as his natural father, i don't know.)
William & Charlottes children, 10 died before 1911, these 5 burials are all i can find in Manor Park plus parents.
1890 29 Jan, Charlotte Forrest Aged 3 (Birth maiden name Hopkins?) But the census shows she was this family.
1890 3 Dec, William Forrest aged 0 (Birth maiden name Capel)
1891 21 Oct, James Forrest aged 0 (Birth maiden name Cable)
1892 26 Sep, Thomas Forrest aged 0 (Birth maiden name Cable)
1901 30 Apr, Susan Forrest aged 0 (Birth maiden name Cable)
1912 Charlotte Forrest (nee Cable) aged 48
1914 William Forrest aged 52
~~~~~~~~--------
These are births who either survived to later life or died young but, to the best of my knowledge, were not buried in Manor Park.
1885 4Q William Forrest born & died aged 0, no burial record. (Maiden name Cable on GRO.)
1886 25 Aug Sarah Forrest born (Birth maiden name Capel) Buried Nunhead 1945. (my G'mother))
1894 1Q John Forrest reg'd, born 13 Nov 1893 (maiden name Hopkins?) unknown burial.
1895 1 Apr Alfred Forrest born (maiden name Capel) Buried in New Zealand 1950
1897 2Q Charlotte Forrest born (maiden name Cable) Buried in Clacton. 1976
1902 2Q Emma Forrest born (maiden name Cable). Buried Ealing district 1980
1904 1Q Charles & Robert Forrest born & died aged 0 (maiden name Cable)
both buried 29th Jan Camberwell Old.
1905 2Q Rosina Forrest born (maiden name Cable) died 1966 Hillingdon
1909 4Q William Forrest born (maiden name Cable) died 1986 Lewisham
My parents told me that my grandmother was Jewish, she married a Catholic of Irish descent which did not please her parents at the time.
The Forrest and Hopkins families were very close, even in the same house on some census. I can't find Charlotte Cables baptism or presence on any census before she married. I even suspect Charlotte Hopkins and Charlotte Cable may be the same person but can't prove it.
7
London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Marriage: Jewish
« on: Sunday 13 August 17 09:22 BST (UK) »
Yes i have the certificates and i'll start a new thread on London & Middlesex, thanks. South Londoners buried at Manor Park.
8
London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Marriage: Jewish
« on: Saturday 12 August 17 13:38 BST (UK) »
Thanks Bookbox, you may well be right. It does seem odd though that only this line of my ancestors chose this cemetery. All the other lines as far as i know are at Camberwell or Nunhead.
9
London & Middlesex Lookup Requests / Re: Marriage: Jewish
« on: Saturday 12 August 17 09:48 BST (UK) »
All of the children were born in the 1800's and i have found most, if not all, of them thanks anyway. My query is, having now discovered that the cemetery was not dedicated to Jewish people i'm wondering why they would go that distance to be buried. I was told by my parents that they were Jewish and photo's seem to reinforce that. I think my next step must be to find out if they had family links with that area.