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Lancashire / Re: Where in Liverpool are Stanley Square and Cavendish Road?
« on: Tuesday 12 April 22 19:51 BST (UK) »
Thanks again. That must be the right place.
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Lancashire / Re: Where in Liverpool are Stanley Square and Cavendish Road?
« on: Tuesday 12 April 22 18:47 BST (UK) »
Thanks ShaunJ. This location would make sense. I managed to find a map (Philip's plan of the town and port of Liverpool with Birkenhead and the adjoining Cheshire coast, Bartholomew, John London, [1884?]) and although I didn't find Stanley Square on it, there are unnamed alleyways or streets off Dryden St close to the eastern (Great Homer Street) end to the south and also to the north. Perhaps one or other of those forms the square.
Still no luck with Cavendish Road.
Still no luck with Cavendish Road.
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Lancashire / Where in Liverpool are Stanley Square and Cavendish Road?
« on: Tuesday 12 April 22 17:06 BST (UK) »
I'd like to ask if anybody knows the locations of a couple of places in Liverpool that I came across in 19th-century records. One is Stanley Square mentioned in a census record for 1871. The other is Cavendish Road in a death certificate for 1883 (both the deceased and the informant lived there at different numbers. The district for the death record is certainly West Derby. The sub-district is unclear but might be Walton, and this seems possible since in 1881 the family were at nearby Kirkdale. I know there is a Cavendish Drive in the Walton area, but I wondered whether there might have once been a Cavendish Road.
Thanks for your help.
Thanks for your help.
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Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / Re: Shared autosomal DNA and relationship probabilities
« on: Saturday 19 October 19 15:01 BST (UK) »
Thank you for the link. It is an interesting tool
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Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / Shared autosomal DNA and relationship probabilities
« on: Saturday 19 October 19 13:13 BST (UK) »
I have tentatively identified 2 DNA matches as, respectively, a 6th cousin and a 5th cousin twice removed. According to my identification of them these two matches are not related to each other but they are related to me through the mother and father, respectively, of my great great great grandfather. What is surprising is that both matches seem to be far better than would be expected.
The first match (6th cousin) is estimated to be:
Shared DNA 0.4% (27.8 cM), Shared segments 2, Largest segment 17.3 cM
The other (5th cousin twice removed) is:
Shared DNA 0.7% (47.5 cM), Shared segments 3, Largest segment 28.5 cM
I understand that the average DNA shared for both 6th cousins and 5th cousins twice removed would be about 0.01%, and also read (on isogg.org/wiki/Cousin_statistics) that the probability of there being no detectable shared DNA at all would be about 90%. So my question is, can such remote family relationships possible contribute to so much shared DNA? Can anybody advise on how to work out the likelihood?
Thanks.
The first match (6th cousin) is estimated to be:
Shared DNA 0.4% (27.8 cM), Shared segments 2, Largest segment 17.3 cM
The other (5th cousin twice removed) is:
Shared DNA 0.7% (47.5 cM), Shared segments 3, Largest segment 28.5 cM
I understand that the average DNA shared for both 6th cousins and 5th cousins twice removed would be about 0.01%, and also read (on isogg.org/wiki/Cousin_statistics) that the probability of there being no detectable shared DNA at all would be about 90%. So my question is, can such remote family relationships possible contribute to so much shared DNA? Can anybody advise on how to work out the likelihood?
Thanks.
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Rutland / Re: Francis Collingwood born about 1770
« on: Sunday 22 April 18 15:46 BST (UK) »
Hi,
Thanks a lot for checking this.
I suspect the 1780 Francis is not the one who became a Saddler in London. It said on the net somewhere, though it is maybe not totally reliable, that 1780 Francis and at least one of his siblings settled in America, Perhaps his father, Thomas (who seems to have been a Victualler, born about 1743, son of Thomas and Elizabeth) could have been the first cousin of 1739 Francis (the Publican). So your Edward, the Glover and Thomas senior would then have been brothers born around 1700. But that is just a guess.
Your message clarified some confusion over the name of Edward COLLINGWOOD’s wife. There are some records transcribed on the net in which the children of the 1739 Francis generation have parent’s Edward and Ann. It looks as though that “Ann” or “Anne” could be a mistranscribed form of Jane.
Thanks a lot for checking this.
I suspect the 1780 Francis is not the one who became a Saddler in London. It said on the net somewhere, though it is maybe not totally reliable, that 1780 Francis and at least one of his siblings settled in America, Perhaps his father, Thomas (who seems to have been a Victualler, born about 1743, son of Thomas and Elizabeth) could have been the first cousin of 1739 Francis (the Publican). So your Edward, the Glover and Thomas senior would then have been brothers born around 1700. But that is just a guess.
Your message clarified some confusion over the name of Edward COLLINGWOOD’s wife. There are some records transcribed on the net in which the children of the 1739 Francis generation have parent’s Edward and Ann. It looks as though that “Ann” or “Anne” could be a mistranscribed form of Jane.
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Rutland / Francis Collingwood born about 1770
« on: Thursday 22 February 18 09:55 GMT (UK) »
Francis COLLINGWOOD was a saddler living and working at Great Portland Street, London in the early nineteenth century. It is likely that he died aged 50 in 1820. I am investigating the possibility that he came from an Uppingham family. Two things suggest this could be the case.
1. An older Francis COLLINGWORTH (about 1739-1780) was a publican in Uppingham, and his family included two children with names and dates of birth that correspond to those of the known siblings of Saddler Francis.
2. There was a bequest in the will of an Uppingham lady, Sarah PARKER (died 1805 – she was the sister of Rev’d John Parker MA who was Usher at the School). The bequest is to “Francis Collingwood of Great Portland Street, Middlesex, saddler”.
Francis, the Uppingham publican appears to have had children, Mary 1771, Henry 1774, Ann, 1776 and Edward, 1778. It would have been ideal had there been one more: Francis, 1770, but I can find no sign of this.
Two of the siblings, Mary and Edward are buried at Uppingham churchyard with their parents. It is interesting that neither Henry nor Ann are there since there is an older Rootschat string (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=532975.msg3872772#msg3872772) about people who could well have been them, together with their brother Francis (who is confirmed to be the Saddler Francis). At the time when that string was active, an Uppingham origin was suggested, but not established; all three of them lived at least the latter parts of their lives away from Rutland.
I’d be very glad to receive help from anybody who knows about the Uppingham COLLINGWOODs or can find any other evidence that the Saddler Francis was born in Uppingham in about 1770.
1. An older Francis COLLINGWORTH (about 1739-1780) was a publican in Uppingham, and his family included two children with names and dates of birth that correspond to those of the known siblings of Saddler Francis.
2. There was a bequest in the will of an Uppingham lady, Sarah PARKER (died 1805 – she was the sister of Rev’d John Parker MA who was Usher at the School). The bequest is to “Francis Collingwood of Great Portland Street, Middlesex, saddler”.
Francis, the Uppingham publican appears to have had children, Mary 1771, Henry 1774, Ann, 1776 and Edward, 1778. It would have been ideal had there been one more: Francis, 1770, but I can find no sign of this.
Two of the siblings, Mary and Edward are buried at Uppingham churchyard with their parents. It is interesting that neither Henry nor Ann are there since there is an older Rootschat string (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=532975.msg3872772#msg3872772) about people who could well have been them, together with their brother Francis (who is confirmed to be the Saddler Francis). At the time when that string was active, an Uppingham origin was suggested, but not established; all three of them lived at least the latter parts of their lives away from Rutland.
I’d be very glad to receive help from anybody who knows about the Uppingham COLLINGWOODs or can find any other evidence that the Saddler Francis was born in Uppingham in about 1770.
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Northamptonshire / Re: Samuel NORWICH b. Kettering mid-1760s?
« on: Friday 15 July 16 18:39 BST (UK) »
Hi Trish, and thanks again for your help with this.
So the 7-year old Charlotte at the workhouse in 1941 died a few years later and sadly did not grow up to become anybody’s great great grandmother. I’ll need to look elsewhere, and as you suggest, it would be good to get a marriage certificate which could give the name of her father. I’ve never found Charlotte’s marriage to Charles NORTH, but the Thomas MOORE marriage at Leicester in Q4 1860 is established, so will look into getting that one.
Concerning the John, baptised 9 Sep 1817 Kettering, in the 1851 census, he is living at Leicester and has a daughter, “Schazire NORWICK”, born about 1841. This would be the niece of the above Charlotte. I’ve never come across a name like Schazire before, so perhaps her name really was Charlotte too. In 1861 there is no sign of any Schazires but Charlotte MORE is living at London Road, Oadby. She is the 20-year-old wife of an agricultural labourer, with a 1-month old baby, John, but her husband is not at home.
What you discovered with parallel records for 1795 John’s christening showing different mothers is typical for these NORWICHes. There is also some confusion between records for All Saints, Loughborough and All Saints, Leicester, suggesting a possible transcription error in some of the web sources.
So the 7-year old Charlotte at the workhouse in 1941 died a few years later and sadly did not grow up to become anybody’s great great grandmother. I’ll need to look elsewhere, and as you suggest, it would be good to get a marriage certificate which could give the name of her father. I’ve never found Charlotte’s marriage to Charles NORTH, but the Thomas MOORE marriage at Leicester in Q4 1860 is established, so will look into getting that one.
Concerning the John, baptised 9 Sep 1817 Kettering, in the 1851 census, he is living at Leicester and has a daughter, “Schazire NORWICK”, born about 1841. This would be the niece of the above Charlotte. I’ve never come across a name like Schazire before, so perhaps her name really was Charlotte too. In 1861 there is no sign of any Schazires but Charlotte MORE is living at London Road, Oadby. She is the 20-year-old wife of an agricultural labourer, with a 1-month old baby, John, but her husband is not at home.
What you discovered with parallel records for 1795 John’s christening showing different mothers is typical for these NORWICHes. There is also some confusion between records for All Saints, Loughborough and All Saints, Leicester, suggesting a possible transcription error in some of the web sources.
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Northamptonshire / Re: Samuel NORWICH b. Kettering mid-1760s?
« on: Friday 15 July 16 15:03 BST (UK) »
Thanks Trish for your reply.
Yes, I think this is the fellow, and I still wonder about his various marriages and offspring.
In the picture might be marriages to:
• Anne LANGHAM, 13 November 1788 at St Martin’s, Leicester
• Sarah?
• Elizabeth MEASURES, 13 October 1800 at St Margaret’s, Leicester
• Mary BIGGS, 5 September 1814 at Kettering
I can see link to a possible Charlotte that comes through a John NORWICH who could have been Samuel's son by one of the first three. This Charlotte was christened 14.03 1834 at Leicester St Margaret and it looks as though she was in Kettering Union workhouse in 1841. The touble is that in all the later census records that my ancestor appears in, she claimed an age based on birth in about 1842. My ancestor married first Thomas MOORE and later Charles NORTH and seems to have lived her life variously in Leicester and Leeds.
Did you look at the article? I thought that the Mary HOLLIDGE who is quoted there seemed to be saying many things that are supported by today's records, but that her 1856 interviewer might have confused some of her remarks. Incidentally the Mary HOLLIDGE was probably Mary BIGGS at the time of her marriage to Samuel. She married Elija (I think) HOLLIDGE later in life.
Yes, I think this is the fellow, and I still wonder about his various marriages and offspring.
In the picture might be marriages to:
• Anne LANGHAM, 13 November 1788 at St Martin’s, Leicester
• Sarah?
• Elizabeth MEASURES, 13 October 1800 at St Margaret’s, Leicester
• Mary BIGGS, 5 September 1814 at Kettering
I can see link to a possible Charlotte that comes through a John NORWICH who could have been Samuel's son by one of the first three. This Charlotte was christened 14.03 1834 at Leicester St Margaret and it looks as though she was in Kettering Union workhouse in 1841. The touble is that in all the later census records that my ancestor appears in, she claimed an age based on birth in about 1842. My ancestor married first Thomas MOORE and later Charles NORTH and seems to have lived her life variously in Leicester and Leeds.
Did you look at the article? I thought that the Mary HOLLIDGE who is quoted there seemed to be saying many things that are supported by today's records, but that her 1856 interviewer might have confused some of her remarks. Incidentally the Mary HOLLIDGE was probably Mary BIGGS at the time of her marriage to Samuel. She married Elija (I think) HOLLIDGE later in life.
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