1
The Common Room / Problem with Ancestry
« on: Sunday 17 March 24 19:39 GMT (UK) »
For that last week or so, I've been unable to open any Ancestry hints. Is anyone else having the same problem? Any idea how I can resolve it?
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2
Derbyshire / Smith and Milnes of Dunstan Hall
« on: Wednesday 13 March 24 22:23 GMT (UK) »
I am trying to place the Reverend Courtney Smith into the Smith/Milnes family who owned Dunstan Hall, near Chesterfield, but I am getting myself thoroughly confused and Smith is not a good name to research when you're getting sken-eyed!
Courtney Smith was baptised in Edensor in 1808, the son of Richard and Charlotte Smith. He was a clergyman at Barlow. He married Emily Barnes in Brampton in 1835; their last child was Ernest Broughton Smith (I'm pretty sure that middle name is relevant). He died in Pleasley but is commemorated in the grounds of Beauchief Abbey.
Beauchief Abbey was owned by the Pegge family (or Pegge-Burnells by the late 1700s). Peter P-B had, in 1782, married Mary Lee, who was the widowed daughter of William Milnes of Aldercar. Peter's mmn was Broughton and his son in law/nephew (they were keen on marrying in!) was Broughton Steade (aka Broughton Pegge-Burnell). So that's why I suspect the Broughton name is significant.
William Milnes, Mary's father, had a brother Richard Milnes, who owned Dunstan Hall. He in turn had a son Richard Milnes (1747 - 1824) of Barlow Grange.
At some point in the 19th century (I think) the Milnes at Dunstan Hall changed their name to Smith, or maybe added Smith as a second surname, I'm not clear on this. Maybe it was the other way around? Genuki has a comment from 1817; Dunston-hall some time belonging to the family of Milnes, is now the property and residence of Mrs. Smith, grand-daughter and heiress of the late Richard Milnes, Esq. One of their number, William Broughton Smith (WBS - it's that name again!) married Mary Steade, who was Peter PB's granddaughter, and his son gained a royal licence in 1873 to use the Milnes surname again.
So ultimately I think that Courtney Smith, commemorated in Beauchief Abbey, was probably related to Mary Pegge-Burnell who came from the Milnes family but as I said, I've got myself confused and don't blame anyone for being equally confused now!
Can anyone help me untangle this? Many thanks in advance!
(And if you think this is bad, well some of the descendants of WBS's line in Australia decided to drop a couple of names as otherwise their surname would have been Craven-Smith-Milnes-Pegge-Burnell!!)
Courtney Smith was baptised in Edensor in 1808, the son of Richard and Charlotte Smith. He was a clergyman at Barlow. He married Emily Barnes in Brampton in 1835; their last child was Ernest Broughton Smith (I'm pretty sure that middle name is relevant). He died in Pleasley but is commemorated in the grounds of Beauchief Abbey.
Beauchief Abbey was owned by the Pegge family (or Pegge-Burnells by the late 1700s). Peter P-B had, in 1782, married Mary Lee, who was the widowed daughter of William Milnes of Aldercar. Peter's mmn was Broughton and his son in law/nephew (they were keen on marrying in!) was Broughton Steade (aka Broughton Pegge-Burnell). So that's why I suspect the Broughton name is significant.
William Milnes, Mary's father, had a brother Richard Milnes, who owned Dunstan Hall. He in turn had a son Richard Milnes (1747 - 1824) of Barlow Grange.
At some point in the 19th century (I think) the Milnes at Dunstan Hall changed their name to Smith, or maybe added Smith as a second surname, I'm not clear on this. Maybe it was the other way around? Genuki has a comment from 1817; Dunston-hall some time belonging to the family of Milnes, is now the property and residence of Mrs. Smith, grand-daughter and heiress of the late Richard Milnes, Esq. One of their number, William Broughton Smith (WBS - it's that name again!) married Mary Steade, who was Peter PB's granddaughter, and his son gained a royal licence in 1873 to use the Milnes surname again.
So ultimately I think that Courtney Smith, commemorated in Beauchief Abbey, was probably related to Mary Pegge-Burnell who came from the Milnes family but as I said, I've got myself confused and don't blame anyone for being equally confused now!
Can anyone help me untangle this? Many thanks in advance!
(And if you think this is bad, well some of the descendants of WBS's line in Australia decided to drop a couple of names as otherwise their surname would have been Craven-Smith-Milnes-Pegge-Burnell!!)
3
Warwickshire / Whitley hospital,Coventry, in the Blitz
« on: Tuesday 05 March 24 19:51 GMT (UK) »
My mother has always believed that her cousin died in the Coventry blitz. However, I got the death certificate and it turns out that her cousin, who was a young child, died of diphtheria on 16 Nov 1940 in Whitley hospital, Coventry, which I understand was the infectious diseases hospital.
I have a medical background so I know a bit about diphtheria, and the stats for the type of infection on the death cert are that 10% of children so infected died. Not good, but it still means that 90% survived.
Does anyone have any knowledge or information about whether Whitley hospital was affected by the blitz (it doesn't seem to have a taken a hit, so far as I can see)? 16.11.1940 was the day after the Blitz so I'm guessing that the city infrastructure was ruined - would the hospital still have had electricity/water? Would staff have gone to work there as normal (if they were alive and able to get there!) or would they, and equipment, have been redeployed elsewhere in the city where medical need was greatest?
I'm just wondering if an element of my mother's story is correct, inasmuch as maybe the diphtheria wouldn't have killed her cousin if there was a working ventilator available, or if the staff had all been at work as normal, etc etc.
Does anyone have any further ideas or information? It's conjecture of course but I would like to give my mum an idea of the circumstances of her cousin's death. (My mum lived in western Leicestershire at the time and remembers having a bed made up under the dining room table, for extra protection, and seeing the red glow on the horizon and being told that that was Coventry burning).
I have a medical background so I know a bit about diphtheria, and the stats for the type of infection on the death cert are that 10% of children so infected died. Not good, but it still means that 90% survived.
Does anyone have any knowledge or information about whether Whitley hospital was affected by the blitz (it doesn't seem to have a taken a hit, so far as I can see)? 16.11.1940 was the day after the Blitz so I'm guessing that the city infrastructure was ruined - would the hospital still have had electricity/water? Would staff have gone to work there as normal (if they were alive and able to get there!) or would they, and equipment, have been redeployed elsewhere in the city where medical need was greatest?
I'm just wondering if an element of my mother's story is correct, inasmuch as maybe the diphtheria wouldn't have killed her cousin if there was a working ventilator available, or if the staff had all been at work as normal, etc etc.
Does anyone have any further ideas or information? It's conjecture of course but I would like to give my mum an idea of the circumstances of her cousin's death. (My mum lived in western Leicestershire at the time and remembers having a bed made up under the dining room table, for extra protection, and seeing the red glow on the horizon and being told that that was Coventry burning).
4
The Common Room / Holyland/Woolsgrove link? Can anyone help?
« on: Sunday 11 February 24 17:48 GMT (UK) »
I'm trying to identify the Thomas Holyland who died in Lambeth in 1838 and thought the informant on his death certificate might give a clue but if it does, that clue is eluding me!
Details on certificate:
Thomas Holyland, labourer, age 71, died at 106, Cornwall Road (Lambeth district) on 28 Jan 1838 (day actually not clear but I don't think it matters if it's a day or two out!)
Informant - Mary Woolsgrove (made her mark), Daughter in law, 70 Commercial Road, present at death.
I only have one possible Thomas on my database who might fit the bill, but he was a butcher and Chelsea out-pensioner (fought at Waterloo), last positively identified in 1816 when he was discharged from the army, "old and worn out" (pity him if he then had to work as a labourer!)
So who was this daughter in law Mary Woolsgrove? There's someone of that name in Newington in the 1841 census but she was from Ireland, and there's nothing I can see to link her to the Holyland name. I can't see any useful info on marriages or deaths. I've also looked for Woo*grove to account for name variations.
Who knows what "daughter in law" might have meant then as well.
It's always possible that Thomas wasn't really a Holyland, sometimes the Holland surname was mistaken for this, but not often.
Can anyone help with Mary, or with any Woo*grove + Holyland links that I've missed?
Muchas gracias
Details on certificate:
Thomas Holyland, labourer, age 71, died at 106, Cornwall Road (Lambeth district) on 28 Jan 1838 (day actually not clear but I don't think it matters if it's a day or two out!)
Informant - Mary Woolsgrove (made her mark), Daughter in law, 70 Commercial Road, present at death.
I only have one possible Thomas on my database who might fit the bill, but he was a butcher and Chelsea out-pensioner (fought at Waterloo), last positively identified in 1816 when he was discharged from the army, "old and worn out" (pity him if he then had to work as a labourer!)
So who was this daughter in law Mary Woolsgrove? There's someone of that name in Newington in the 1841 census but she was from Ireland, and there's nothing I can see to link her to the Holyland name. I can't see any useful info on marriages or deaths. I've also looked for Woo*grove to account for name variations.
Who knows what "daughter in law" might have meant then as well.
It's always possible that Thomas wasn't really a Holyland, sometimes the Holland surname was mistaken for this, but not often.
Can anyone help with Mary, or with any Woo*grove + Holyland links that I've missed?
Muchas gracias
5
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Will from 1666
« on: Monday 01 January 24 21:39 GMT (UK) »
Attached (I hope) is a snip from the will of Edward Pegge of Ashbourne, gent, who died in 1666. I'm struggling with some words of the transcription but I'm also unclear about what had been going on between the named parties (the latter might be clearer if anyone can help with the transciption).
A bit more background: This was a wealthy family. Father Edward (the testator) had 2 sons, Edward and Christopher (C being the younger by nearly 20 years). He seems to have left almost everything to Christopher and to various charities. Francis Mundy (decd) was Edward snrs father in law, Adrian Mundy was his brother in law. German Pole was described in various other documents as a cousin. Both sons were attorneys, and National Archives has a lot of documents which refer to various members of this family taking other family members to court.
My attempt:
personall estate I doe will and bequeath to my son Edward on trust & confidence
he will see the estates and (?) or (?) to my sonne Xofer and the
60 (?) y and went to Mr Milward during the (?) and free my executors of and from
the (?) and the rest of the (?) and bequeaths in this my will (?) accordinge
to the (??) thereof And my (
?) my sonne (??)
shall save and keep harmelesse my sonne Edward his heirs executors and administrators
of and from all (??) and troubles which my Brother Adryan Mundy or Any other
shall (?) or bringe or cause to be (?) persecuted or brought agt my said sonne Edward
his heirs executors or administrators for or as being an executor or administrator of
Francis Mundy esq deceased or for or by reason of an award order or (?)
certificate made by Ferman Pole esq in a cause (?) in the high ct of
Chancery between the said Adryan and me and my said son Edward
Many thanks for any/all offers of help.
A bit more background: This was a wealthy family. Father Edward (the testator) had 2 sons, Edward and Christopher (C being the younger by nearly 20 years). He seems to have left almost everything to Christopher and to various charities. Francis Mundy (decd) was Edward snrs father in law, Adrian Mundy was his brother in law. German Pole was described in various other documents as a cousin. Both sons were attorneys, and National Archives has a lot of documents which refer to various members of this family taking other family members to court.
My attempt:
personall estate I doe will and bequeath to my son Edward on trust & confidence
he will see the estates and (?) or (?) to my sonne Xofer and the
60 (?) y and went to Mr Milward during the (?) and free my executors of and from
the (?) and the rest of the (?) and bequeaths in this my will (?) accordinge
to the (??) thereof And my (
?) my sonne (??)shall save and keep harmelesse my sonne Edward his heirs executors and administrators
of and from all (??) and troubles which my Brother Adryan Mundy or Any other
shall (?) or bringe or cause to be (?) persecuted or brought agt my said sonne Edward
his heirs executors or administrators for or as being an executor or administrator of
Francis Mundy esq deceased or for or by reason of an award order or (?)
certificate made by Ferman Pole esq in a cause (?) in the high ct of
Chancery between the said Adryan and me and my said son Edward
Many thanks for any/all offers of help.
6
Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition / Placename in Ireland
« on: Wednesday 20 December 23 21:43 GMT (UK) »
Sorry, I can't do the snips, but I'd be v grateful if someone could have a look at the name of a place in Ireland which is given as someone's birthplace in the census!
Joseph Wardle; lived Ibstock, Leicestershire; yob consistently 1800. All below gleaned from FindMyPast.
1841 "I" (for Ireland)
1851 Ireland
1861 Ireland Rala (Bala?)
1871 Ireland Kalily ( This time that first letter doesn't look like the R which appears further up the page in someone else's entry).
Many thanks in advance!
Joseph Wardle; lived Ibstock, Leicestershire; yob consistently 1800. All below gleaned from FindMyPast.
1841 "I" (for Ireland)
1851 Ireland
1861 Ireland Rala (Bala?)
1871 Ireland Kalily (
This time that first letter doesn't look like the R which appears further up the page in someone else's entry).Many thanks in advance!
7
The Common Room / Was he a soldier?
« on: Friday 15 December 23 22:17 GMT (UK) »
Abraham Wardle was living in Ibstock, Leicestershire at the time of the 1841 census. He'd been there at least since the early 1800s when his children were baptised there but before that, who knows?
(A previous thread tried to ascertain his background but we didn't get very far).
Anyway, in the 1841 census his age was given as 60; that of his wife, Bede (AKA Bridget), was 70. Abraham was a "pensioner" and Bede was from Ireland and this makes me wonder if he was in the militia. How else would he get a pension? And I've come across a fair few militiamen who brought wives back from their posting in Ireland.
What do folk think?
(I can't find him on the Ancestry search; FindMyPast has indexed him as "Abram Wardbee". I've no idea how old he really was; having been 60 in 1841, he died in 1842, when the National Burial Index transcription has his age as 72 and his death cert gives his age as 81!)
(A previous thread tried to ascertain his background but we didn't get very far).
Anyway, in the 1841 census his age was given as 60; that of his wife, Bede (AKA Bridget), was 70. Abraham was a "pensioner" and Bede was from Ireland and this makes me wonder if he was in the militia. How else would he get a pension? And I've come across a fair few militiamen who brought wives back from their posting in Ireland.
What do folk think?
(I can't find him on the Ancestry search; FindMyPast has indexed him as "Abram Wardbee". I've no idea how old he really was; having been 60 in 1841, he died in 1842, when the National Burial Index transcription has his age as 72 and his death cert gives his age as 81!)
8
Leicestershire / Enderby, Jays/Jeys etc
« on: Tuesday 05 December 23 11:23 GMT (UK) »
Various spellings - Jay, Jey, Jeys, Jays, Jeyes, Jayes, Jeays, Jeayes.
Over the years I did a lot of work on this family, erroneously believing them to be my ancestors. DNA has proved that they're not !
I have BMD certs, gravestone photos, and lots of musings about likely family groupings, all of which are no use to me now.
So if anyone thinks they might have a link to this family, I'm more than happy to share what I've got. Just get in touch!
Over the years I did a lot of work on this family, erroneously believing them to be my ancestors. DNA has proved that they're not !
I have BMD certs, gravestone photos, and lots of musings about likely family groupings, all of which are no use to me now.
So if anyone thinks they might have a link to this family, I'm more than happy to share what I've got. Just get in touch!
9
Yorkshire (West Riding) / Bagshaw Wood,Sheffield
« on: Wednesday 04 October 23 22:47 BST (UK) »
Bagshaw Wood is named in court reports regarding a case in what is now Sheffield in 1825, and I'm trying to find out where it was (it doesn't seem to exist now, or at least not by that name).
The court reports describe a person travelling on foot from Sheffield to Beauchief (at that time in Derbyshire). I think that the incident took place in what is now Abbey Lane or Hutcliff cemetery in Beauchief, so Bagshaw Woods were probably to the north (ish) of there; but to complicate matters, the Bagshaws were landowners at Norton/Meadowhead, a mile or two to the southeast.
The area is still quite wooded but none of the current woods are called Bagshaw (Hutcliffe and Marriot are the closest woods to the northwest that still seem to be known by specific names, and Chancet wood is to the southeast).
I'm looking on the OS maps from the 1890s - does anyone have any access to any older maps that show Bagshaw Wood?
The court reports describe a person travelling on foot from Sheffield to Beauchief (at that time in Derbyshire). I think that the incident took place in what is now Abbey Lane or Hutcliff cemetery in Beauchief, so Bagshaw Woods were probably to the north (ish) of there; but to complicate matters, the Bagshaws were landowners at Norton/Meadowhead, a mile or two to the southeast.
The area is still quite wooded but none of the current woods are called Bagshaw (Hutcliffe and Marriot are the closest woods to the northwest that still seem to be known by specific names, and Chancet wood is to the southeast).
I'm looking on the OS maps from the 1890s - does anyone have any access to any older maps that show Bagshaw Wood?