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Messages - cam12

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1
Lanarkshire / Re: 1870's Geography - Bridgeton, Parkhead
« on: Tuesday 16 November 21 14:41 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks to all of you for your comments - they have been very helpful.

Understanding the "Registration District" ... where the Great Eastern Road was ... access to the maps ... and that Parkhead was an area WITHIN the Bridgeton Registration District (I suspected that - so great to have confirmation!!).

I must confess that I have found Scotland's People to be a bit frustrating to work with when it comes to Birth Registrations in particular.  The fact that it appears that you can not apply the parent's names as filters makes it quite difficult, especially if you don't know WHERE a birth took place ... and may even be guessing about names and dates, or don't really know how many children a couple had. Obviously SP do have the parent's information ... they have scanned copies of the actual Birth Registrations on which the parent's names appear. But I guess that they have chosen to design their system so that the parent's names are not part of the user's selection process when looking for Birth records (unlike i.e. Roots Ireland).

I have used Family Search and Ancestry to try and narrow things down ... but I obviously haven't appreciated the significance of the Registration Districts enough, and how to use that geographic information from Family Search and Ancestry and apply it when looking at Scotland's People info.

The one thing that I DO appreciate about Scotland's Birth Registration documents - which I believe is somewhat unique - is that you provide the date and place of the parent's marriage.  I have never seen that when searching Ireland, England, Australia, New Zealand, Canadian or U.S. Birth Registrations.

If it were not for this unique feature ... I would never have known that this Martin family actually originally came from Ireland! All oral family history said that they were exclusively from Scotland.

BTW - is there a web site that you can recommend that shows the geographic names, and corresponding coding numbers for the Registration Districts, and Sub-Districts in and around the Glasgow area ... that would align with what Scotland's People shows when you put in an enquiry?

Thanks again for all of you help!
Cam12

2
Lanarkshire / 1870's Geography - Bridgeton, Parkhead
« on: Monday 15 November 21 22:58 GMT (UK)  »
Hello from Canada.
I am doing family research (surname Martin) who came from Northern Ireland to Glasgow area around 1869.  Through Scotland's People (SP) and/or Ancestry I have the following address descriptions on various records. On a map they look like very different neighbourhoods ... but some documents seem to use the place descriptions interchangeably (?).

The family: Patrick Martin & wife Margaret (Smith) Martin had 4 daughters born in Ireland (Mary b: 1858; Margaret JR b: 1864; Susan b: 1866; Ann b: 1868). They then moved to Scotland. The family appears in the following records in Scotland, chronologically:


Birth Registration - Alexander Martin b: 9 May 1870. The actual record says "Parkhead", but the summaries of both SP & Ancestry say "Bridgeton".

Scotland 1871 Census - says family address was "#414 Great E. Road".

Birth Registration - Patrick Martin b: 17 January 1872. The actual record says "#44 West Muir Street, Glasgow", but summaries say "High Church".

Birth Registration - Francis Martin b: 13 June 1874. The actual record says "Chappell Terrace, Parkhead, Glasgow".

Death Registration of the first-born child, Mary Martin: died 6 January 1876 "#17 Brown's Lane, Great Eastern Road, Glasgow".

These descriptions make it sound like the family moved alot in a short period of time, although the Great Eastern Road appears in both the 1871 Census, and the Death Registration in 1876.

Is it considered to be in Bridgeton? or Parkhead?

The reason that I especially want to understand the geographic descriptions is that I am missing a son - Peter Martin - potentially born in 1873. He married a great-great Aunt of mine in Ireland, 5 December 1900, but then returned to work in Greenock (where he lived prior to the wedding) ... and family oral history says that Peter never returned to the marriage. This is substantiated by the Ireland 1901 and 1911 Census in which Peter is absent.

In the Scotland 1901 Census I have a Peter Martin, boarding in Greenock, correct age, marital status, occupation ("machinest" on Marriage Record; "Machine Worker in Shipyard" in the Census) who said that he was born specifically in "Bridgeton".

I suspect this is the "absent" great-great Uncle.

Any insights into these different geographies, and how they tie into the "Bridgeton" would be appreciated!

Regards from Canada
Cam12

3
Cork / Re: RC Chapel - Michelstown, 1873
« on: Thursday 28 January 21 01:03 GMT (UK)  »
KG ... thank you so much for your replies!

I just realized the error that I made.  When I copied the Marriage Certificate of Simon Armstrong and Margaret Nash over from irishgenealogy.ie to a Word document for my records ... I THOUGHT I had cropped out anything other than the information relating to them ... and I accidentally picked up the Church details for the NEXT couple listed on that same page!!

Them getting married in Kildorrery makes so much more sense!

So now the question is - does the Catholic church where they married in Kildorrery in 1873 still exist?  I will look more closely at the Cloyne diocese links which you provided.

Thanks again!
CAM12


4
Cork / Re: RC Chapel - Michelstown, 1873
« on: Wednesday 27 January 21 17:40 GMT (UK)  »
KG - thanks for the reply.

I was just trying to figure out if the Church of Immaculate Conception built in 1830-1850 which is still operating today in Castleterry, Ballindagan is the same location where my relatives married in 1873 (which was described on their Marriage Registration as the Roman Catholic Chapel in Ballindagan).

Do you think that these churches are one-in-the-same?

Thanks for the links re: townlands.
CAM12

5
Cork / RC Chapel - Michelstown, 1873
« on: Wednesday 27 January 21 16:00 GMT (UK)  »
Hello from snowy Canada!  I would appreciate any input re: the following.

Via irishgenealogy.ie I have located the long Marriage Registration of past relatives Simon Armstrong & Margaret Nash who married on 21 January 1873. My question is in regards to the church where they were married.

In the Registration, the church is described as the Roman Catholic Chapel of "Ballindangan" in Kildorrery, Union of Michelstown, Co. Cork.

Would that be the building which is still standing today as the Church of Immaculate Conception in Castleterry, Ballindangan, which is listed in the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage as being built in 1830 - 1850?

And just to confirm: Castleterry is the Townland, Ballindangan is the Village, Michelstown is both a town and Catholic Parish?  I confess that I struggle a bit with some of your geographic descriptions!! 

Thanks, in advance, for your help! Hope you are all staying safe on your side of the Atlantic!
CAM12

6
World War One / Re: Arthur Morgan - WWI - Help with War Records
« on: Monday 30 November 20 21:06 GMT (UK)  »
AllanUK & Jim1 - thank you both for your input ... it is always good to get a fresh set of eyes on these things.  I bumped into this conflicting information about 6 years ago, & then just set it aside ... but I have always wondered.

I too started off assuming that these were probably 2 different Arthur Morgans ... but the fact that my great grandparents did not even marry until 1896 in Clontibret, and by all accounts did not even leave Ireland to go to Staffordshire until after that, made it seem unlikely to me that the Arthur Morgan born in Staffordshire in 1895 was related.

Also, the year-of-birth of 1898 is consistent with the correct Morgan family in both the 1901 & 1911 England & Wales census ... both of which show Arthur born in Butts Lane. The fact that the Arthur Morgan #5272, who was medically discharged ALSO said that he was born specifically in Butts Lane, Staffordshire ... and that his father (albeit referred to as James versus John) is from Clontibret, Drumnart, Ireland ... just seems like an awfully big coincidence to me.

I feel VERY confident that the Arthur Morgan who died (#5418) is definitely my great-uncle, especially after I found the copy of his Will ... with the very specific mention of his siblings & father by name (and who but someone close to the family would know that his sister, "Bridget Mary", went by the nickname of "Cissie" ... who was my Grandmother, BTW).

I did not know about the Silver War Badge awarded to Arthur Morgan #5272 ... so I will look into that further  - thanks!

And I am still hoping that if I can find Arthur's papers when he re-enlisted ...  as you pointed out ... it may refer to his earlier service ... which would give definitive proof that these Arthur Morgans are one-in-the-same.

If they still exist, maybe I can contact the Royal Irish Regiment directly - I will check into that.

Thanks again for your comments & taking the time to look into this!! Stay safe & well!
Cam12


7
World War One / Arthur Morgan - WWI - Help with War Records
« on: Thursday 26 November 20 19:39 GMT (UK)  »
Hello - I would appreciate any input or comments regarding the following about a great uncle of mine who served (and died) during WWI.

Background:
My great grandfather, John Morgan, married Bridget Grimes in Clontibret, Co. Monaghan, Ireland in 1896, then moved to Staffordshire, England to work in the coal mines.  The family grew with the birth of: Arthur (1898), Bridget Mary (who went by the name of "Cissie" in the family), Margaret, & John. My great grandmother died about 1908, & after the 1911 England & Wales Census, the remaining family returned to Clontibret, Ireland.

My questions are in regard to the WWI service of the eldest son, Arthur Morgan, who was 13 at the time of the 1911 England & Wales Census, which shows him being born: Butts Lane, Audley, Staffordshire

Based on family oral history, Arthur served and died (in France) & the family still has the Memorial Plaque (Dead Man's Penny?) - but no paperwork.

I have been able to substantiate this history via several records:

UK World War One Pension Ledgers & Index Cards: Arthur Morgan, Rank: Private; Death Date: 15 August 1917; Death Place: France; Service Number: 5418; Regiment: R. Irish C & H.

Ireland's Memorial Records 1914 - 1918 page 204 it states: "Morgan, Arthur. Reg. No. 5418. Rank, Private, Royal Irish Regiment, 6th Batt.; died of wounds, France, August 10, 1917; born Audley, Staffordshire."

Arthur’s burial records show: Private Morgan #5418 Royal Irish Regiment d: 10 August 1917; buried: Brandhoek New Military Cemetery VI.B.3

The last piece of convincing evidence that this is indeed my great uncle is his handwritten Will in his service file which states that he wished to leave money to "my sisters Maggie & Cissie Morgan, Drumnart, Clontibret ... his brother John ... and anything remaining to his father, John Morgan...".

The mystery is that I have ALSO found on Ancestry UK British Army World War One Pension Records 1914 - 1920 - "Proceedings on Discharge #14638" what appears to be the very SAME Arthur Morgan ... who enlisted ... but was then discharged after 210 days of service, at age 19 years, on 8 July 1916 as considered medically unfit to serve (due to poor eyesight, which he suffered from birth and not something the result of Military Service).

Here Arthur Morgan is shown as: No. 5272 Rank: Private; Royal Irish Rifles, 3rd Bat. Place of Discharge: Dublin. On Page 7 of the report it shows his next of kin as James Morgan, Drumnart, Clontibret, Father (should have said "John") but importantly is Place of Birth: "Butt Lane North Staff."

It appears to me that these are the very same Arthur Morgan who seems to have enlisted in late 1915 ... been discharged in July 1916 as Medically Unfit to serve ... and then presumably re-enlisted, only to die in France less than a year later, in August 1917.

I have been unable to find Arthur's Enlistment Papers for his 2nd round of service - I was hoping they might provide some insight as to why he joined up again ... OR ... is this something that often happened, as the war progressed, and perhaps more soldiers were needed.

Any comments would be appreciated.  Thanks, in advance, for your help. 
Regards from Canada

8
Antrim / Re: Belfast - Jonesboro Park area - 1902
« on: Friday 13 November 20 20:48 GMT (UK)  »
Thanks to you both - Gaffy and KG.

I did have the information regarding Magdalena and her husband, David Beattie (Thx) ... but I was not familiar with the Lennon Wylie web site - great to have another resource!

9
Antrim / Re: Belfast - Jonesboro Park area - 1902
« on: Friday 13 November 20 18:27 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Gaffy & KG - thanks for responding  - sorry - I'm not sure how to do links.

When I Googled "Johnsborough Street, Belfast" nothing came up, but when I looked up Clara Street and saw a current-day map of the area, that is when I saw that "Jonesboro Park" is so close to Clara Street & Castlereagh Road.

KG - Thanks for the info that back in 1901 - 1907 that there was a "Jonesboro Street" at right angles to Clara Street ... much as "Jonesboro Park" is today.

It may have just been a recording error on the 1902 Birth Registration of "Johnsborough St. Belfast" and should have read "Jonesboro Street".

Regarding the Census:

1901 Census: David & Magdalena Beattie - lived at 8 Clara Street (Co. Down)
1911 Census: David & "Medeline" Beattie - lived at 26 Castlereagh Road (Co. Down)

Magdalena's maiden name was Walsh ... and her brother from the Newtownards area was William Walsh.

Regarding the Birth Registration (found on irishgeneaology.ie)

Child's name: William Walsh
Date: 27 July 1902
Place: Crescent, Comber
Father: William Walsh, "Johnsborough St. Belfast", Labourer
Mother: Alice Walsh formerly Quinn
Informant: Eliza Quinn (this is Alice's mother, and the birth took place at the home of Alice's parents).

I was just trying to figure out why the father, William, was living away from the Newtownards area at the time of the birth, and I had assumed that he was doing so for work. If "Johnsborough St. Belfast" was just a recording error on the Birth Registration, & it should have read "Jonesboro Street" ... then it just adds some detail to the chronicle that William was living near the home of his
married sister, Magdalena (Walsh) Beattie in Belfast.

Interesting that there was a brick works very near by ... who knows ... perhaps William Walsh worked there!?

FYI - by the time of the birth of his next child in 1906, William Walsh was back living in Newtownards with his family.

Thanks for your help!





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