Turnbull / Bonchesterbrige

[Jamjar]

His marriage notice, 3rd last column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199605793


This should provide his folks names:

1860 3908 WILSON Walter to BRYDEN Janet

Well E.M., I don’t doubt that Brett’s Walter came to Australia on the Diadem and the fact he doesn’t appear in the manifest means nothing. I think you’ll find that he isn’t the only person missing off it.

Your issue seems to be with connecting this Walter, a baker, to your family tree.

You say that Walter may have been out born out of wedlock, even so it is also the paternal bloodline which one can still lay claim, too.

Has anyone found the death of Wilhelmina to see what her surname was at time of death? Did this couple have other children?

I think that we who have Scottish ancestry, have all experienced an inabilty to find a Scottish marriage record, at one time.

I think it would be best if you both used the PM system to solve your issues, which I note seem to be very one sided. Brett has a right to believe what he wishes and so far he has been able to support his argument with documentation.

Brett, what evidence do you have that there wasn’t more than one Walter Wilson, carpenter, in Hawick at the time of Walters, baker, birth?

Jamjar

[Jamjar]

Baptism (06 April 1823) - Father, Walter Wilson (Hawick) Cabinet Maker ;-) - You will need to navigate this image to see further to the right where it says HAWICK

You failed to mention that this was in England:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMR1-CBK

Jamjar

[Jamjar]

He here in June 1853, 3rd column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4793225

If he sailed in 1852, you should find him on the Scots 1841 and 1851 censuses.

Jamjar

Is this your Walter on the 1851?: WILSON Walter 1851 28 778/ 2/ 11 Selkirk Selkirk

Jamjar

[Jamjar]

I recall the Australian official at the Victoria records office responding that there was no connection to my Wilson's of Hawick.

This is a very odd thing to say. I very much doubt that someone working in the Victorian records office would be able to tell you of family history connections. You seem to be unfamiliar with our records systems. You will see from newspaper articles I have provided and the Victorian Records Office death registration that Brett’s information is correct. Walter and Janet had 3 sons, who would have provided the information about Walter. So, we know that must be correct and not made up by Brett.

Who taught him to be a baker?

A local baker no doubt. I was a hairdresser in my teens and a very good motor mechanic, thanks to watching my father work. My father did many jobs that were unrelated and also built our family homes. He wasn’t a trained builder. I’m also handy with tools thanks to watching/assisting him.

Who did he live with in Hawick?

I can’t find a match for him in Hawick on the 1841. Maybe he didn’t live in Hawick, but elsewhere with his mother, who I can’t pinpoint in England, or Scotland. I do now believe he was conceived out of wedlock. Also, he was baptised in 1823, which doesn’t mean he was born in 1823.

Why isn't his birth certificate on Scotland's People?

As it is highly likely he was born in England.

And, the basic question which would answer it all  Where is the Marriage Certificate between my Walter Wilson b. 1798 and Wilhemina Bell

They weren’t married, I don’t think. I have an ancestor born out of wedlock who has the father’s surname.

Brett Maximutt, unlike you I was born in Scotland and I can prove who all of my ancestors were and how they are related to me with birth certificates, marriage certificates, and death certificates. You know, link after link, connection after direct connection. The way it's supposed to work.  You're making quantum leaps from Australia to Scotland out of thin air.

Another very odd thing to say. I was born and live in Australia and I too can prove who all my Australian, Scottish, Welsh and English ancestors were through the purchase of all the relevant certificates.

Finally, Rootschat threads are not ‘blogs’. They are threads that focus on individual’s requests for assistance with tracing their ancestors. You may like to spend some time looking at the site. It’s very interesting and there are experienced folk on here that could give an expensive genealogist a run for their money. 

Jamjar

[majm]

  

Re any request for a marriage certificate to be produced for a formal marriage for Walter's parents,   ... I understand that that's a formal certified legal document in the civil registration process ... and that civil registration commenced in Scotland in 1855 ... and in England in 1837. 

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/family-history and pre Civil Registration :
 
Church registers (pre-1855)
Prior to 1855 you will find Scottish births and baptisms, proclamations of banns and marriages, deaths and burials in church registers. These records are incomplete and entries contain much less information – sometimes not much more than the index entry – which varies from parish to parish and over time. 

I understand that Scotland did not ban irregular marriages until 1940.  https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/article/irregular-marriage-scotland

And then there's Common law marriages ...

And then there's the entries in the Family Bible that Brett holds 

JM

 

[majm]

http://www.nndb.com/people/455/000206834/
James Wilson  Founder of The Economist
Born: 3-Jun-1805 Hawick, Scotland
Died: 11-Aug-1860 Calcutta, India

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw06846/Hon-James-Wilson  (portrait there)

and plenty of other live links via google search engine.

JM

ADD https://www.telegraphindia.com/states/west-bengal/taxman-rediscovers-father-of-taxation-mullickbazar-grave-of-economist-founder-james-wilson-gets-facelift-ahead-of-150th-death-anniversary/cid/1267133 

[majm]

You are not related to Sir James Glenny Wilson either. You keep making these claims and you have no proof.

Your Walter Wilson would have been mentioned in Sir James Glenny Wilson's South Island Journey that he wrote to George Murray Wilson in 1873. Wouldn't he have mentioned that he had a cousin that he was going to swing by and say hello to? They never met because they're not in the same family.

You can't answer the question of the marriage certificate because one does not exist, therefore you do not exist in my family tree.

Aside from not having any valid proof, you are not one of my Wilsons because your line is not mentioned in the family papers - anywhere. All the other branches of the tree are discussed extensively. 

There was no baker in the family. Which family are you referring to?  Did Walter Wilson, cabinet maker bake pastries too and then teach his imaginary son how to bake? We both know he didn't.  We both know that there was no marriage.  We both know that there is no connection. You are not related to Sir James Glenny Wilson, M.P. and you are not related to James Wilson, Esq. Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered Bank. 

Nobody went to Australia. They went to New Zealand and established Ngaio Station in New Zealand.

One of my elderly relatives continues to be interested in New Zealand history and recognised the mention of Sir James Glenny WILSON.   He has contacted me, and after a lengthy discussion, I have eventually capitulated and agreed to post the information as follows.  He is concerned about an inaccuracy of some significance … I have inserted the particular reply that concerns my rellie.

 E.M. Wilson wrote ‘…   Nobody went to Australia. They went to New Zealand and established Ngaio Station in New Zealand.’

Yes, Sir James was a member of Parliament in NZ, yes, he was involved in establishing Ngaio Station in NZ.       BUT he was most definitely in Australia, particularly in Victoria… and most importantly, from at least a family history perspective, HE MARRIED IN VICTORIA… 
 
James Glenny WILSON and Annie ADAMS were married in the colony of Victoria (Australia).  Vic BDM reference  1874, #801 .  A Plastic Card  would be needed to immediately download a full image (across two pags) of that marriage certificate.   
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history 

On Vic BDMs you should expect to read details that include the names of the parents of both the bride and the groom, (including nee names), and many other family history details.  I think Vic BDMs are as informative as Scottish BDMs.  Here’s a live link for RChat’s Resources Board for Victoria. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369963.0  and one of the live links there includes:
Details on ALL Certificates for Victoria
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html

Further info easily found via google ...
Online tree http://www.thekingscandlesticks.com/webs/pedigrees/19051.html
Biographical Material
https://teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/2w28/wilson-james-glenny
https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/3646487  at the National Library of Australia, Canberra.
http://www.nzsap.org/system/files/proceedings/1953/ab53008.pdf  A pdf of a public address given in 1953 about Sir James, - mentions he came to Australia prior to New Zealand

I have checked and there’s many other online sightings for Sir James and for his wife. 
Trove: https://trove.nla.gov.au/ 
Papers Past: https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/
NZ Archives https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/  including Probate File WILSON, James Glenny (R11439752)

JM

[E.M. Wilson]

I really appreciate your attention to this matter and your impressive knowledge of genealogy (spelled correctly this time) and of how to retrieve information. The details are incredible but you're just not hitting the target here.

And I agree, Brett can have his opinion as to who he is related to even if it is from an illegitimate birth.  But I do not agree that Brett's opinion of being related to James Wilson, Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered  Bank should be advertised all over the internet by him.  Even if his Great, Great Grandfather was born out of wedlock and that "counts" where is the proof of the birth? Where is the birth certificate? Who was the mother? Who does his Great Great Grandfather's death certificate list as his parents? Prove it's a bastard that came from my family line.  Please tell me Brett is related to me with a bastard connection. Anybody?

Let's take this a little further, somebody mentioned that Brett failed to state that the baptism of his Great Great Grandfather took place in England.  Why did Brett leave that detail out?  Isn't that very important?  Why would it take place in England when my family is Scottish and they are mainly listed as being in Hawick and Wilton?

Further, I wouldn't even care except that he has replaced his opinion as fact all over the internet.  His opinion being that he is related to James Wilson, Economist and Founder of Standard Chartered Bank and now to Sir James Wilson of New Zealand when he is clearly not related.

If you search for James Wilson, Economist and Founder of Standard Chartered Bank Brett comes up and people are believing that he is from the same blood line when he has absolutely no proof and confirmed that in a previous post. There is no proof of a bastard line either.  Why does my family have to have this attached to it? Do you see the big picture here? So, I'm not picking on Brett, I'm just wanting some proof.  Put up or shut up type of proof and it's just not there. Any brilliant amateur genealogist willing to help? I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance. I would appreciate your help. It would be nice for Brett to get some third party assistance and unbiased judgment as to what is true and what is false, for Brett to finally get to the bottom of this since he's spent so much time and effort on trying to connect to my Wilson Family and still hasn't been able to do it.

Don't waste time with the minutia, just the facts please. Thanks again.

[majm]

E.M. 

I think you have mis-read my post ... the info I have provided in my reply is from one of my elderly relatives ...  He is contradicting you.  It is an aspect of your research that he is questioning. 

JM 
ADD  Sir James was from Hawick, ENGLAND apparently ... see NZ papers past. OBSERVER, VOLUME XXXIII, ISSUE 19, 18 JANUARY 1913 page 4.  James Glenny Wilson was born in Hawick, England, sixty-four years ago, and had his education topped off at London and Edinburgh universities. When he was twenty-one he arrived in Victoria, picked up some colonial experience, discovered New Zealand four years later and took up wool and mutton culture ....

I really appreciate your attention to this matter and your impressive knowledge of genealogy (spelled correctly this time) and of how to retrieve information. The details are incredible but you're just not hitting the target here.

And I agree, Brett can have his opinion as to who he is related to even if it is from an illegitimate birth.  But I do not agree that Brett's opinion of being related to James Wilson, Founder of the Economist Magazine and Standard Chartered  Bank should be advertised all over the internet by him.  Even if his Great, Great Grandfather was born out of wedlock and that "counts" where is the proof of the birth? Where is the birth certificate? Who was the mother? Who does his Great Great Grandfather's death certificate list as his parents? Prove it's a bastard that came from my family line.  Please tell me Brett is related to me with a bastard connection. Anybody?

Let's take this a little further, somebody mentioned that Brett failed to state that the baptism of his Great Great Grandfather took place in England.  Why did Brett leave that detail out?  Isn't that very important?  Why would it take place in England when my family is Scottish and they are mainly listed as being in Hawick and Wilton?

Further, I wouldn't even care except that he has replaced his opinion as fact all over the internet.  His opinion being that he is related to James Wilson, Economist and Founder of Standard Chartered Bank and now to Sir James Wilson of New Zealand when he is clearly not related.

If you search for James Wilson, Economist and Founder of Standard Chartered Bank Brett comes up and people are believing that he is from the same blood line when he has absolutely no proof and confirmed that in a previous post. There is no proof of a bastard line either.  Why does my family have to have this attached to it? Do you see the big picture here? So, I'm not picking on Brett, I'm just wanting some proof.  Put up or shut up type of proof and it's just not there. Any brilliant amateur genealogist willing to help? I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance. I would appreciate your help. It would be nice for Brett to get some third party assistance and unbiased judgment as to what is true and what is false, for Brett to finally get to the bottom of this since he's spent so much time and effort on trying to connect to my Wilson Family and still hasn't been able to do it.

Don't waste time with the minutia, just the facts please. Thanks again.