Author Topic: Turnbull / Bonchesterbrige  (Read 27165 times)

Offline BrettMaximus

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Re: Turnbull / Bonchesterbrige
« Reply #207 on: Sunday 21 February 21 11:45 GMT (UK) »
Correct @Forfarian

Other than:

Death of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, in Hawick in 1862, husband of Isabella Gray , son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, and Katherine Oliver. Extract already posted on this thread.

Note: Walter Wilson 1770 - 1847 was married to Agnes Fletcher. It was his Father Walter Wilson AKA Handless Was (1712-1795) that married Ketherin/Catherine Oliver.

Wilhelmina's son's diary states that he wrote to his father in Hawick in 1852 on his way to Australia. If his father was not Walter Wilson (1798-1862), you would have to invent another, entirely separate, Walter Wilson who was a cabinetmaker in Hawick for 40 years but is not recorded in the baptism registers, the early trade directories, or the census, or the death records.

There are a massive number of secondary sources that support him being brought up by his father Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker (1798-1823), apprenticed to a baker, working as a baker, emigrating to Australia and settling there.

Note: This date should be 1798 - 1862

But I am across all this data as a matter of course, so I am not critiquing your info which is largely correct.

Appreciated

Brett

Please show me the facts that do qualify that counter my argument.

With the greatest of pleasure.

The primary sources are

1. Baptism record of Walter Wilson, illegitimate son of Walter Wilson, carpenter in Hawick, and Wilhelmina Bell of Riddings (already posted twice on this thread).
2. Marriage certificate of Walter Wilson, son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, and Wilhelmina Bell, to Janet Brydon. Already posted on this thread.
3. Death certificate of Walter Wilson, husband of Janet Brydon, son of Walter Wilson and Wilhelmina, whose surname was incorrectly given as Riddings (where she lived). Only the index listing posted so far but I have no doubt that it would be easy enough to get and post the original document.

Therefore there is absolutely no question whatsever that Walter Wilson, illegitimate son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker in Hawick, and Wilhelmina Bell, is the one who emigrated to Australia, married Janet Brydon and died there in 1903.

So the only question is which Walter Wilson was his father.

The early trade directory lists one Walter Wilson, cabinet maker, in Hawick. Already mentioned in this thread.

The 1841 census shows two Walter Wilsons, cabinetmakers, in Hawick, in the same household, one aged 71 and the other 42. It is reasonable to suppose that these are father (1770-1847) and son (1798-1862), and that they would therefore be listed only once in the trade directory.

The 1851 census shows one Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, widower, 52, in Hawick.

The 1861 census shows one Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, married, 62, in Hawick.

Death of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, in Hawick in 1862, husband of Isabella Gray, son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, and Katherine Oliver. Extract already posted on this thread.

Wilhelmina's son's diary states that he wrote to his father in Hawick in 1852 on his way to Australia. If his father was not Walter Wilson (1798-1862), you would have to invent another, entirely separate, Walter Wilson who was a cabinetmaker in Hawick for 40 years but is not recorded in the baptism registers, the early trade directories, or the census, or the death records.

There are a massive number of secondary sources that support him being brought up by his father Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker (1798-1823), apprenticed to a baker, working as a baker, emigrating to Australia and settling there.

All your arguments against this interpretation are either easily disproved or so abstruse or irrelevant that they are not worth the effort of repeating them.

Walter Bell Wilson (1823-1903), was the son of Walter Wilson (1798-1862), grandson of Walter Wilson (1770-1847) and great-grandson of Walter Wilson (b 1712).

Online Forfarian

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Re: Turnbull / Bonchesterbrige
« Reply #208 on: Sunday 21 February 21 12:12 GMT (UK) »
Correct @Forfarian

Other than:

Death of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, in Hawick in 1862, husband of Isabella Gray , son of Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker, and Katherine Oliver. Extract already posted on this thread.

Note: Walter Wilson 1770 - 1847 was married to Agnes Fletcher. It was his Father Walter Wilson AKA Handless Was (1712-1795) that married Ketherin/Catherine Oliver.
So the death certificate got his mother's name wrong. Just like the death certificate of Wilhelmina's son got her surname wrong.

Quote
There are a massive number of secondary sources that support him being brought up by his father Walter Wilson, cabinetmaker (1798-1823)
Note: This date should be 1798 - 1862/
You're right. Slip of the finger. Apologies.

Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline majm

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Re: Turnbull / Bonchesterbrige
« Reply #209 on: Monday 22 February 21 01:34 GMT (UK) »
 :D :D :D

FH 101 Lesson 3.

Remember the two magic words and use them wisely.

So I noticed that various RChat contributors to this thread have logged in, and thus have been online since Forfarian's  brilliant summary but not all have found the time or words to congratulate  Forfarian.

Thank You.

JM.
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
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Offline BrettMaximus

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Re: Turnbull / Bonchesterbrige
« Reply #210 on: Monday 22 February 21 01:38 GMT (UK) »
Thank you @Forfarian and @MAJM

Especially for your time and effort.



Brett Wilson




Offline E.M. Wilson

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Re: Turnbull / Bonchesterbrige
« Reply #211 on: Monday 22 February 21 05:12 GMT (UK) »
@Forfarian, the Wilsons were either part of the Gunn Clan or the Innis Clan and our Wilsons were part of the Gunn Clan as Abe Gunn can tell you. He also said that there is usually an imposter trying to insert himself in every family. So common. All of the Hawick Wilsons know which Clan they belong to.  No person named Gunn went to Australia? Poppycock.

So many irregularities in this Australian fairytale of epic proportion that need to be buttressed with so many explanations without documentation.  Such an overwhelming response for my brief points that nobody else picked up on.

Multiple times I have found reference of BW as a 1st Cousin 5x removed to James Wilson, Economist but never have I seen it stated for what it MAY (on the 12th of never) be, illegitimate 1st Cousin 5x removed.  Don't worry though, everyone who BW lied to sees through this charade.

I understand from several sources from Hawick that Brett made a real pest of himself when he visited claiming that he was a Wilson and his presence was not welcome. Nobody had ever heard of him.

I guess it's time to change the headstone again.   ;)




Offline BrettMaximus

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Re: Turnbull / Bonchesterbrige
« Reply #212 on: Monday 22 February 21 05:32 GMT (UK) »
Bahahahaha..

Interestingly, I have over 160 years of digitised Hawick Archaeological Society records.

You know the Hawick Archaeological Society of course Elise Marie Alvarez (nee Wilson)?

The same Hawick Archaeological Society that made me a lifetime honorary member for my contributions? http://hawickhistory.scot

These records cover all topics about Hawick and the Borders dating back to the birth of the town when Mary Queen of Scots was a child.

Well I have just scanned all of the digitised records for the words Gunn and Innes.

Gunn mentions:

Gunner, Gunners, Rev George Gunn,  Marcus Gunn, Dr. Clement Gunn, George Gunn Bannerman, P.B Gunn, Gunning Men, Gunns Close.

Innes mentions:

Professor Cosmo Innes, takinnes, Prescott-Innes, Mr James Innes, Master William Innes, pinnes, Mrs Innes.

Not a single mention of Clan Gunn or Clan Inness in them.

Work that out!

As for being a pest.. I think that award goes to someone else!

Oh Shoot!  Pun intended  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Brett



@Forfarian, the Wilsons were either part of the Gunn Clan or the Innis Clan and our Wilsons were part of the Gunn Clan as Abe Gunn can tell you. He also said that there is usually an imposter trying to insert himself in every family. So common. All of the Hawick Wilsons know which Clan they belong to.  No person named Gunn went to Australia? Poppycock.

So many irregularities in this Australian fairytale of epic proportion that need to be buttressed with so many explanations without documentation.  Such an overwhelming response for my brief points that nobody else picked up on.

Multiple times I have found reference of BW as a 1st Cousin 5x removed to James Wilson, Economist but never have I seen it stated for what it MAY (on the 12th of never) be, illegitimate 1st Cousin 5x removed.  Don't worry though, everyone who BW lied to sees through this charade.

I understand from several sources from Hawick that Brett made a real pest of himself when he visited claiming that he was a Wilson and his presence was not welcome. Nobody had ever heard of him.

I guess it's time to change the headstone again.   ;)

Online Forfarian

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Re: Turnbull / Bonchesterbrige
« Reply #213 on: Monday 22 February 21 10:42 GMT (UK) »
the Wilsons were either part of the Gunn Clan or the Innis Clan and our Wilsons were part of the Gunn Clan as Abe Gunn can tell you.
I don't give a toss what some bloke I've never heard of called Abe Gunn says. I am looking at the facts as recorded in primary sources, and only those facts. Everything else is irrelevant.

Quote
All of the Hawick Wilsons know which Clan they belong to.
Balderdash. Most Lowland and Border Scots do not and never did belong to any historical clan, or if they do they don't care. There were and are probably millions of 'sons of William' out there who are descendants of Williams who had absolutely nothing to do with any clan. Some of them have undoubtedly been brainwashed by the brigadoon industry into believing that they belong to Clan Gunn or Clan Innes. Maybe even some of the canny folk of Hawick. Believing something doesn't make it a fact. Some people believe the Earth is flat or that Covid-19 is caused by 5g phobile networks.

Quote
So many irregularities in this Australian fairytale of epic proportion that need to be buttressed with so many explanations without documentation. 
The documentation is there in those primary sources, and it is corroborated by the secondary sources: newspaper reports and the Hawick Word Book (which of course you have to dismiss because it doesn't contain your interpretation of the facts).

Be so kind as to note that in my summary I cited only the baptism record, marriage and death certificates, the census, the trade directories and Walter's own diary, all of which are primary sources recorded at the time of the event by the people concerned. There is no need for any other explanations, with or without documentation.

Quote
Multiple times I have found reference of BW as a 1st Cousin 5x removed to James Wilson, Economist but never have I seen it stated for what it MAY (on the 12th of never) be, illegitimate 1st Cousin 5x removed. 
So? The fact that someone is illegitimate doesn't negate a cousinly connection.

Are we getting to the point now? That you just don't want to have to admit to illegitimacy in your family?

Illegitimacy was a fact of life in Scotland. The bulk of the records of most Kirk Sessions deals with the rather futile efforts of the Kirk to extirpate 'sin' in the form of extramarital fornication. After the first year of statutory registration, the authorities were horrified that the average rate of illegitimacy was 9.1%, and that in some rural counties it was more than double that. Don't take my word for that, of course. See https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1468-0289.1987.tb00419.x

Quote
They were Quakers by now and wouldn't have associated with a bastard.
If Jessie had illegitimate half-brothers and half-sisters and if they are related as Brett claims but can not prove, Walter still would not have been associating with his bastard cousin (if Brett's Great Great Grandfather was actually the cousin of Sir James Glenny  Wilson), Sir James Glenny Wilson because James was a Quaker with high moral standards from a family with high moral standards. They were Quakers that didn't believe in war, debt and being louses creating children out of wedlock - you follow me here? If you want to be louse, that's fine but you can't be both a louse and a Quaker being part of a Quaker family or be a Quaker and hang around louses. My family also made the Quaker Chapel in Hawick - so they were really into the Quaker lifestyle all the way.
And here I was, naïvely imagining that Quakers were gentle, forgiving and open-minded, not a bunch of narrow-minded bigots intent on visiting the sins of the parents on innocent children. Such an unChristian way of looking at things, don't you think? But thank you for putting me right about that.

Illegitimate children had to be brought up somewhere, and Walter says that he was brought up by his father, and that although he was born in England he was taken across the Border soon afterwards and never set foot again in England for 21 years. There is no reason to doubt what Walter himself recorded about his own life.

Facts are chiels that winna ding. Whether you like it or not, the primary sources show that Brett is descended from a bastard line of your Wilson family, and no amount of obfuscation or futile wool-pulling on your part is going to change that. Get over it.

Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline BrettMaximus

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Re: Turnbull / Bonchesterbrige
« Reply #214 on: Monday 22 February 21 11:11 GMT (UK) »
Spot on @Forfarian

Though all were bastards before religion came along ;-)

As for the Quakers, E.M Wilson is incorrect. It was only William Wilson (1764-1832)'s family that were Quakers, the rest of this particular Wilson family were Presbyterian. Willam was the older brother of my GGGG Grandfather Walter Wilson 1770-1847 who was Presbyterian.

The Quakerism connection only lasted for 2 generations in one line of the family (William's line) in fact, one might say one generation, as I am sure that the majority of his children converted out of Quakerism whilst alive, Including James Wilson (The Economist).

But you gotta give her points for trying ;-)

You are quite right on the Kirk Sessions.. So many children were born out of wedlock in those days. It appears that the parents largely god a kick in the shins, 100 Hail Mary's and had to make a small donation to the Church.

This reminds me of a current story..

Artist Delphine Boel has finally been acknowledged as Belgian Princess Delphine of Saxe-Coburg after a two-decade royal paternity scandal. ... The princess bears a striking resemblance to certain members of the royal family, including Albert II.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/sculptor-wins-20-year-fight-to-be-recognised-as-belgian-princess-39592760.html

E.M Wilson can't seem to agree that my Walter Wilson is related, or that he was a child born out of wedlock. You just can't win with her as she is simply out for revenge because I ignored her for some time. I think she has abandonment issues?

It was not easy dealing with her emails (when she was friendly) of many thousands of words on multiple subjects when I was busy. Most of the emails were moaning about her husband ( Armando Alvarez ) etc.  I have a life...

She even accused me of blowing her off one time because I had something cooking on the stove. I had to then send her photographic proof of what I was cooking to placate her... Mmmm  Bunny Boiler!

Brett

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Re: Turnbull / Bonchesterbrige
« Reply #215 on: Monday 22 February 21 11:39 GMT (UK) »
You are quite right on the Kirk Sessions.. So many children were born out of wedlock in those days. It appears that the parents largely god a kick in the shins, 100 Hail Mary's and had to make a small donation to the Church.
No Hail Marys in the Church of Scotland - that's a Roman Catholic thing and absolute anathema to a Presbyterian!

Apart from trying to stamp out 'sin', the Kirk had a parallel agenda, which was to prevent illegitimate children becoming a burden on parish funds by nailing the errant fathers and making them pay towards the maintenance of the child. Until the Act of Parliament setting up parochial boards and transferring responsibility for the poor of the parish from the kirk to the parochial board in 1845, a large proportion of kirk funds had to be applied to that.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.