Cornish Mystery

[Valda]

JAP
I think we have a nice little one name variant going here - completely useless to us of course if Amelia fails to become a Carnarton, but in the end someone is going to love us for it!

I'd like to say Eshburn came to me as an obvious search choice, but I went for the shortcut when all else failed with Ashbourne variants and stuck in Margery with no no name with a rough age and checked through all the Margerys.

OK so I forgot Benjamin Carnarton from the newly established 'one name variant study'.

1841 census
HO107/147/14 Place: Powder-Cornwall Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Kenwyn Truro Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 71 Page: 28
Address: Back Lane
CARNARTON   Benjamin   M   30   Waterman    Cornwall        
CARNARTON   Mary   F   30       Cornwall        
CARNARTON   Mary   F   14       Cornwall        
CARNARTON   Peter   M   10       Cornwall        
CARNARTON   John   M   9       Cornwall        
CARNARTON   Richard   M   7       Cornwall        
CARNARTON   Elizabeth   F   5       Cornwall  
plus 12 others 5 of them N Ks

1851 census HO107 1910 folio 336
Charles Street Kenwyn  Cornwall  
Benjamin Carnarton 47  Helstone, Cornwall, Head Married Coal Porter
Mary Carnarton 44  Helstone, Cornwall, Wife Married
John Carnarton 18 Helstone, Cornwall, Son   Mariner
Richard Carnarton 16 Helstone, Cornwall,  Son  
Eliza Ann Carnarton 15  Truro, Cornwall,  Daughter  Dressmaker
Harriet Moyle 41 Truro, Cornwall,  Visitor  Unmarried
Thomasin Moyle 12  St Austell, Cornwall, Visitor  
William Henry Moyle 2  St Austell, Cornwall

And is this his marriage?

Helston 25 Sep 1826
Abednego CARNARTON  
Mary LENDERYOU

It doesn't help I can't find an Abednego baptism

and the final one because if Abednego can move to Benjamin then Christian or Charity can surely become Kitty, but the Heards I can't find on censuses to confirm the Helston connection.

Kenwyn 14 May 1826
Thomas HEARD  
Kitty CARNARTON

From the IGI - the last baptism maybe a late one

DANIEL HENRY HEARD
Christening: 07 OCT 1827 Kenwyn, Cornwall
THOMAS EDWARD HEARD
Christening: 10 JUN 1831 Kenwyn, Cornwall
JAMES HEARD
Christening: 20 AUG 1843 Kenwyn, Cornwall

and for Peter
There is a John and Mary Carnarton who have two children baptised in Sithey (adjacent to Helston) 1759 (Mary) and 1762 (John) - sadly no later Charles.
Also a marriage in Sithey in 1770 of a Catherine Carnarton who goes to Gwennap with her husband.
Knowing that the Exeter wills have been 'lost' (Second World War bombing raid on Exeter) I wondered whether you had followed up the Death Duties Registers at The National Archives as they 'follow' named beneficiaries?

Will of Mary Carnarthen, Spinster of Sithney, Cornwall. Proved in the Court of Exeter.  
Date August 22 1797
Catalogue reference IR 26/339  

Regards

Valda

[peterpjw]

Hi all

I've attached a pdf version of a spreadsheet on CARNARTHEN and vars I created some years ago.  Much of it has been mentioned in this thread, but see if there is anything else of interest.

Thanks for all the extra new facts.  Sure hope all of this helps the thread originator in some way.

Cheers

Peter

[Valda]

Thank you Peter (18 pages !!) that is very generous. It clears up I think the Benjamin/Abednego issue (JAP you just didn't search far enough away from Benjamin to find his two missing children's baptisms!!!)

MARY JANE CARNARTON 
Christening:  07 JAN 1827   Helston, Cornwall
Father:  ABEDNEGO CARNARTON 
Mother:  MARY 

PETER CHARLES CARNARTON 
Christening:  25 DEC 1829   Helston, Cornwall
Father:  ABEDNEGO CARNARTON 
Mother:  MARY 

Nothing though that helps further for Amelia or a Charles baptism sometime in 1760s ish and much as I've grown quite fond of the Carnartons without Amelia actually proving to be one..........


Peter
the Sithey Death Duty register if you wish it for your collection can be purchased electronically from TNA at

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/power-search.asp?searchType=powersearch

just put Mary Carnarthen into the index.

Regards

Valda

[deb usa]

Hi everyone
This is absolutely unbelievable...... i am amazed  and very grateful for everyones input...i do feel like the lost soul as everyone is contributing and i am sitting on the side lines watching. wish i could help more.
The only way to prove that the amelia knortton line is my family would then be to order the birth cert of of my gggrandmother ...mary slack/smith who married john palmer in 1876 in truro. Mary Slack/smith was born on 1859 in truro hopefully to the parents of Amelia Knortton and George Slack/smith.
 So to get to the story straight...i need to order the birth cert of Mary Slack(who then became smith)...and to see if parents were Amelia KNortton who married George Slack(smith) in march 1842 in truro...... is this correct.
Then to order death cert of  an amelia carnaton who died in 1842 so that we can identify her age at death .

Another thing is ...i may have to order my gggrandmothers cert either under  Mary Slack b 1859 or Mary Smith b 1859...as George had decided to change the family name somewhere between 1851 and 1861!!!!!
 Sooooo...... if i get her birth cert and name of parents are George and Amelia Slack or  Smith ..this would then lead us back to the marriage cert that i have of  Amelia Knortton (carnarton) marrying George Slack/Smith, therefore validating my Amelia Knortton connection but not necesarily the carnarton connection which i doubt will every be proven .
Oh my...i hope this makes sense.
thank you all once again
From one happy  person..me
Deb xxx

[JAP]

Hi again Deb,

I think you are selling yourself short with your comments about not contributing.  After all, who was it who gave the original suggestion that KNORRTON might be CARNARTON - none other than Deb!  Would we ever have got there otherwise?  Well, I can assure you that I wouldn't have.  And who is it who has suggested getting the birth cert of one of the children of George SLACK/SMITH and Amelia whatever!
 
Back on page 1(!), Valda listed SLACK entries in Cornwall on FreeBMD and in the IGI.  From which it seemed that, though your family used SMITH in the censuses and later swapped over to that name entirely, they seem to have formally registered events under SLACK (and used it at baptisms).  Valda also commented that SLACK was extremely rare in Cornwall and probably almost every one of the SLACK events would have been connected to your family.

So, from page 1, your Mary seems to be:
Mary SLACK, birth, Sep qtr 1858, Truro, Vol 5c, page 180
Mary SLACK bap 30 Aug 1858, Truro, parents George SLACK and Amelia

Mary SLACK's birth cert might reveal all!  Let's hope so - fingers crossed that Mary's mother turns out to be, on the birth cert, Amelia SLACK ms CARNARTON!  This is such a great family and rare name that it would really be a pity if it doesn't turn out to be yours.

Incidentally, at some stage you might order in to your nearest LDS FHC the film of the baptism of George SLACK, 29 Dec 1803, age 1, parents William SLACK and Ann, St Andrew Holborn London to see if it mentions William's occupation - George having given his birthplace as Holborn, his father's name and occupation as William a coachmaker, and his age suiting a birthdate as ca 1803.

Hi again Valda,

Of course I saw that wonderful forename Abednego.  But didn't make a connexion with Benjamin and didn't even look at the actual names of his children (Peter Charles, eh, and to think I even mentioned that it was Peter C training to be a schoolmaster).  Duh!  Thus does the reputation of the wielder of the IGI 'magic hat' crumple.  What's worse, I even recollect that, after noticing the name Abednego, I searched in the Helston batch just for children to father Abednego - there were just the two CARNARTONs (and, distracted by the name Abednego, I still didn't notice their so-relevant forenames) but also three PERROW girls in the 1770s/1780s.  No Margery/Margaret but I recall wondering whether these might have been her sisters.

Hi again Peter,

That's a great list of C*N*T*Ns!

But whether you'll ever link them all up ...

I have two informal one-name studies and with one (LOCHTIE/LOCHTY) I can link every single one of them back to Aberdour in Fife Scotland.  But can I link the two main lines (there are also a few loose ones) to each other?  No way!  Though I'm sure they are related - and I have no record of the name before the early 1600s (the lines being separate from much later but a big gap in between).  I am sorely tempted by the folklore from the other main line that the original LOCHTIE was a 'Scandinavian' seaman who lobbed in to Aberdour in the late 1500s, married a local girl, and LOCHTIE/LOCHTY was what they made of his surname or place of origin.

Regards to all,

JAP
PS: I said I had no Cornish connexions and this is true.  BUT, when I travelled to the UK for the first time, it was back in the days when one went by ship    And my ship docked at Falmouth - so I first stepped on land in England in Cornwall.  The ship had engine trouble and went into dry dock (a tanker size dry dock in which my little ship was hardly a speck) in Falmouth.  And to anyone who might regard this as "spooky" - not at all; I like puzzles and finally I've got involved in one which happens to be in Cornwall.

[Valda]

Actually as JAP says Debs you are adding to all this with some very good suggestions.

I also have a one name study which has zilch connection with Cornwall and yet on my one visit to Cornwall's record office - researching with a friend her Cornish roots, I walked into the record office on a summer's day when there was barely anyone in the place and the staff commented as I signed the book how unusual it was to have two people in the place with the same reasonably rarish surname. He of the same surname was researching his wife's Cornish roots.
This by the way I don't considered 'spooky' - if you walk into enough record offices sooner or later you have to meet someone.

Getting Mary Slack's birth certificate is an excellent idea for getting another shot at Amelia's surname. In fact so excellent and obviously simple and straightforward you have to ask why we didn't suggest it in the first place - obviously too busy 'enjoying' the Carnarton one name study, or certainly I was.
 
I think we now have to just sit it out and wait for the evidence from those certificates.

Regards

Valda

[JAP]

Hey Valda,

Having madly mowed the front, back, and far back lawns, I'm just about to log off and go and make something to eat (about 7:30pm here) and then watch an evening's mindless TV.

But I have to say that I too wondered how it was that none of us had suggested getting a SLACK birth cert!  But thought it prudent not to say so - didn't want to embarrass myself (I've done enough of that)!  As you say, we were so into the CARNARTONs, the obvious had slipped by.

Deb, just as well you are here to keep us on the straight and narrow of your family!!

Judy
PS: The spookiest thing about Cornwall back then was when we set off from Falmouth with the idea of going to the Lizard and Land's End.  At the Lizard, we stood in total mist - but it only started at knee level so, if we lay down on the ground, we had quite a good view for the first foot or so ...  We gave up after that and drove east ...

[peterpjw]

G'day everyone

Well, I've spent most of the afternoon working through all of the information presented so far, and I've put most of it into my family tree program, so if any of you want a gedcom, just let me know.

I have a few observations.  Comments welcome.

1) The SMITH alias SLACK business is intruiguing.  Perhaps one explanation for the change from coachbuilder journeyman to hawker could be the expansion of the railway system (decline in coachbuilding around then?).  But why change to SMITH?  Did they need to make themselves anonymous?  Bankruptcy or unpaid debts perhaps?  Or did some event in George's family (perhaps death of a parent) expose an illegitimacy, prompting him to take his natural father's name?  Fascinating stuff!  If this was my family, I would be buying EVERY certificate and other primary source that I could lay my hands on.

2) I'm fairly comfortable with the identification of Amelia "KNORTTON" as Amelia "CANARTON".  The place name from which I presume the CANARTON surname derives (near Carn Brea in Illogan parish) has been written both as CANARTON and CARNARTHEN (and other variations).  Even if the CANARTONs of Truro and Kenwyn aren't the same family as the CARNARTHENs of Phillack, my guess would be that way back in time, several people from the place took its name as their surname.  Those people at that time could have been connected anyway, through other ancestral lines.  (An unprovable theory, of course!)

3) The 1842 marriage showing KNORRTON - details might have been written by a non-Cornish clerk, perhaps visiting or filling in for the usual incumbent.  This could be one explanation for the unusual spelling.

4) I wonder if, during the normal course of business, it would be reasonable to expect that the coachbuilding SLACKs had some interaction with the tanning KNORTTONs?  I suppose coachbuilders might have used tanned leathers, or used the services of tanners in the preparation of leathers for the coaches.  This might explain how George met Amelia.

5) Did anyone notice the following coincidence (?) - Mary Jane CARNARTON d/o Abednego & Mary was baptised same day (in Helston) as Charles CARNARTON s/o Charles & Mary (in Kenwyn) - date was 7 January 1827.

6) Charles was a name that occurred in the Phillack CARNARTHEN families between 1700 and 1750!  I'm keeping this in mind for a possible link between the Helston and Phillack lines eventually. (OK, I'm an optomist.)

7) I guess we have concluded that Benjamin is the same person as Abednego.

8 )  Deb, if I were you, I wouldn't waste any time obtaining the 1817 removal order.

9) Amelia b 1816/17 might have been brought up by her grandparents Charles and Margery as their daughter.  This could explain why she didn't become a DENNIS.  Would also explain why she has Charles as her father's name (it would be Charles senior if this is the case).  The removal order or a bastardy bond might name Amelia's natural father.  So, was Charles sr or Charles jr the tanner?  Or both?

10)  The Amelia who died 1842, assuming she is the one born 1824, could have been out to service at the time of the 1841 census.  It seems there no sign of her on the COCP pages at all?  I agree that she is less likely to be the pupil called COTTONMOTH.

11)  It's easy for Marg (as an abbreviation for Margaret or Margery) to be confused with Mary (handwriters and transcribers both being human).

12)  How is Margaret "Margery" CARNARTON nee PERROW (ca 1765-1855) an aunt to Sarah "Sally" LIBBY (b 1789) (as per 1851 census)?  I don't see the connection.

Cheers

Peter

[Valda]

Of Peter's points 12 is definitely yours JAP, I'm only going for the easy stuff because I'm also about to put my feet up for an evening of mindless television.

Point 1 , I can't see there is any evidence of illegitimacy in the Slack family (the marriage certificate ties to the possible baptism) or any positive reason why the family would change from Slack to Smith since moving from coachmaking to hawking looks economically downhill to me. I did suggest bankruptcy (not insolvency - there is a difference) rather than something criminal, but you would need to explore records at Cornwall CRO to see whether you could unlock that puzzle. I can't see that certificates would get you anywhere with this one.

Point 3 Amelia married at Truro registry office and not in the local Kenwyn church. Marrying there would have allowed her to have her father's details go unchallenged and might be the reason for the more unusual (at the time) registry office ceremony.

Point 4 I'm more interested in knowing why George moved to Kenwyn from London. Kenwyn to London I understand. London to Kenwyn I don't. Once there the place couldn't have been that large though the 1851 census brings up 9,770 people which is larger than I expected, so sooner or later presumably most people met most people.

Point 6 I'm hoping Sithney might hold the clue to Helston (Death Duty Register!!). I don't think we've really got any further back than that yet as a possibility.

Points 8 & 9 children born before marriages particularly to other men have a tendency to be brought up by grandparents, but even if they weren't they don't necessarily assume either their legitimate father or their step father's surname, whichever their mother married. Not until 1927 were illegitimate children legitimised by a later marriage of their parents. However legally you could be known by any name you chose to be known by.
The 1817 removal order exists but there is no evidence that a 'Bastardy Order' ever did and if it did has survived. There is no evidence that Mary Carnarton was pregnant (other than there has to be some reason for why there was a removal order in the first place and the best we can hope from the removal information is that she was pregnant - I think you need to produce a child before you get documentation on possible fathers?) If Debs is going to order the photocopies of the quarter sessions information she needs to ask whether there was a subsequent 'Bastardy Order' which I think Cornwall CRO will check without a charge and could include in the photocopying if there was. There would appear to be nothing in the quarter sessions or you might have expected it to appear on the A2A website (as it has for Charles and Mary Duff) but that might be worth asking whether the period has been completely indexed. No 'Bastardy Order' and we are a bit stumped. There is no baptism on the IGI or the Cornwall FHS baptism index. You would have to check the Falmouth (are Falmouth baptisms on the IGI?) and Kenwyn registers just in case but it might be a fornlorn quest - though if there is anyone reading this who is popping into Cornwall's record office I'm sure we would all be very pleased if you could do us a quick look up for Amelia.

And one of my own - why aren't there any Carnarton burials on the Cornish burial index 1813-1837? Should there be the odd Charles?

From FreeBMD
Deaths Sep 1846
Carnarton  Charles     Truro  9 179   
Deaths Mar 1858
Carnarton  Charles     Falmouth  5c 174

One of these I presume was the son of Charles junior (on the 1841 census but not the 1851 census) - who was the other one - a child? Are we a bit short in the Charles Carnarton department on censuses?

Regards

Valda