Proof Positive

[CarolynM]

When delving back beyond 1800 or so, when there may be little or no chance of finding corroborative evidence from certificates and censuses, how much evidence do people think is necessary before adopting a possible ancestor?  In the absence of too many possible alternatives, do people just jump in and claim anyone born within a reasonable radius of the last town you know your ancestors lived in, or do you insist on pretty hard evidence - and if so, what?

[Fitty]

personally!  I like to see hard evidence but if thats not possible then i know my John Smith 21 Glass Blower was married to Ann 20  and they had a son Thomas aged 1 and they lived in Hunslet, Leeds on the 1841 Census.  so then i check the 1851 and find John ( Glass Blower)and Ann Smith , 32 and 31 repectively with 2 Children Thomas 10 and Martha 5, living in Beeston, Leeds. I claim them as mine after i'd ordered the kids Birth Certs and made sure they tallied up with the info i've already got.  If i find John Smith married to a Sarah with children Thomas, Martha and Fred. Then i'd look for Ann's death and John and Sarah's wedding cert to see if he was a widower when he married Sarah.  The majority of times they do leave clues...it's just knowing where to find them.

[Sylviaann]

Fitty I think she means before that.  It's when you get to Parish records and fine John Smiths birth to John Smith that the trouble starts.

Carolyn I would look for wills.  I would look at the names of the children, are some the same as the grandparents.  It's always difficult unless they lived in the same area all their lives.  I was lucky with one side of the family to find a death naming the parents.  I would never have found them otherwise. 

I think wills are the only absolute proof but they are not easy to come by.  Sometimes a marriage record says where the husband is from.
You also have to check out other possible candidates to see if their families have married.  Often you only have gut feelings when you get futher back.
What do others think?
Sylviaann

[Little Nell]

Carolyn,

I would agree with Sylviaan - wills are often one of the best ways to get proof positive.  They did not have to be anyone special to leave a will.  Another way is to find mention of the family in the parish chest records - vestry minutes/account books or the poor law records.  All these should be at local record offices.  Also worth checking out are manorial records - to see who was admitted to the tenancy  of property.  Sometimes relationships are mentioned there if the property stayed within the family.  You can search for names of people or property on the Access to Archives website (www.a2a.org.uk).  The records are not available to view online but the record offices catalogues often give a few useful bits of information about what the archives contain.  I have found lots of useful dates (including death dates) and relationships from this site.

Nell

[Jane Masri]

I think you have to be a bit of a detective, Sherlock Holmes and all that   Using the process of elimination helps alot.  Proving and disproving your theories.  Dig, dig, dig, sometimes a scrap of information points you in the right direction.  I look at everything from every angle.  The most useful thing I do from time to time, is to simply walk away from it and then come back to the same problem after a few days, so many times I've spotted something obvious the second time around.  It's usually a question of 'not seeing the wood for the trees!',
Jane

[CarolynM]

Thank you for the suggestions and encouragement.

Yes, I'm talking about well before censuses or registration - I have an Ann Foster who married James Medhurst in Mayfield, Sussex in 1792.  Unfortunately, Thomas Foster and Ann Selling had a daughter called Ann Foster in Mayfield in 1766, and John Foster and Elizabeth Baker had a daughter called Ann Foster in Mayfield in 1765.  She could be either - or neither.  James Medhurst and Ann did have a son called Thomas, though; perhaps that's a clue!

[Jane Masri]

Carolyn,
These are the marriages you talked about

Extract from the Sussex Marriage Index:
Place: Mayfield, East Sussex,  Date: 14 Feb 1792:
Subject: Ann FOSTER
Spouse: James MEDHURST, botp (B)
 
Extract from the Sussex Marriage Index:
Place: Mayfield, East Sussex,  Date: 30 Oct 1763:
Subject: Thomas FOSTER
Spouse: Ann SELLING
 
Extract from the Sussex Marriage Index:
Place: Mayfield, East Sussex,  Date:  6 May 1763:
Subject: John FOSTER, otp
Spouse: Elizabeth BAKER

Found this marriage.  Note that he marry's a SELLING, same name as Thomas's wife.  Could be the same John that married Elizabeth.  Look for a burial of Elizabeth.


Extract from the Sussex Marriage Index:
Place: Mayfield, East Sussex,  Date: 23 Oct 1768:
Subject: John FOSTER
Spouse: Martha SELLINGS
 


Also this marriage of Ann Foster which is a second marriage as she is a widow.  Looking at the index it would appear that this second marriage is Ann who married a John Crossingham in 1757

 Extract from the Sussex Marriage Index:
Place: Mayfield, East Sussex,  Date:  3 Oct 1783:
Subject: Ann FOSTER, wid
Spouse: Thomas HUNTLY, botp (B)

Hope this hasn't served to confuse you, but, to me, it looks like there were two brother's & a sister in Mayfield at that time, ANN, Thomas & John.  What I found from the index was that all the marriages in the name of Foster in Mayfield from 1605-1837 were all female.
Jane
 


 
 

[mickgall]

Hi jane
do you wether all counties had a marriage index like Sussex. I need to find someone born in 1767 in Norfolk and have a couple of leads. I'm hoping to go to the Norfolk records office soon and if they have a marriage index like sussex it would be a great help, I was there in the summer but didnt realise there could have been an index.
Mick

[Jan B]

Hi
There is also what is called Examination papers, which include Settlement and Removal orders.
If a person or families decided to go and live in another town, the Parish Relief people would have had to support them if they had no jobs.
And they usually "removed" them and sent them back to the town they were born at!  That included widows too, they sent the widows back to the town where her husband was born or last worked at, even though she wasnt born there, and hadnt been there before!
I was very lucky with my ancestors!  I have found two removal papers on 2 of my lines, and they told me all family names, dates of birth, kids, parents names, where they came from, and on one of them, that he had two accidents,  where he had lost an arm and a leg!
There are not too many Settlement papers about, but it is worth enquiring at the appropiate Record Office about it, giving them the surname of who you are looking for!
Below is a URL that explains it all much better than me!!

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/poorsettlement.html

Jan B