Your Opinion??

[Tees]

Hi Rootschatters,

I would love your opinion or input on this "issue."

For the number of years now, I have been trying and trying to locate my beloved great-granny's birth record or baptism. I do not have much success or luck.

I was able to locate her mother and her second husband in the 1911 Census. Using the information off the census--I was able to find their son's record but not the daughter's.

I tried to figure out why--the helpful lady at the National Archives (in Dublin) found a birth record off the indexes--it listed the exact parentage that my great-granny always stated on few documents I have on her.  It was her brother.

It puzzled me greatly that I could not find her birth record with the birth date that she supplied my great-grandad for the naturalization application--15 September 1871 or Sept 1877 on the census.

I decided to take another stab on the records--I found a certain forename and surname exactly matched my great-granny's under her father. Got this: the birth date was 15 September 1864. So the birth year is off and the mother was not what it should be. The birthplace was same as the brother's. Clearly, it was her half-brother?

My question to you is: Is it possible for my great-granny to round her birth year off because she did not want my great-grandad to know that she is much older than him? OR that she did not know that she was born to a different mother because her real mother died when she was very young could not remember her?

Strangely, the family lore passed down to me is that she only knew her birth date and that the church she was baptised in was burnt down during the Civil War. Also, her father died when she was 6 years old.

Now, I am asking you--am I having a breakthrough on finding her birth record? OR is it highly doubtful that it was my great-granny?

I would appreciate your feedback or opinion or input on this subject.

Hopefully yours,

Tees

[Tees]

Hi again,

Is it possible that Honora is the alternative form of Nora?

Please advise.

Thanks,

Tees

[OzKat]

This is not a real answer to your question but my Scottish/Kiwi great grandmother definitely lied about her age (born 1869 but said 1879 at her marriage). She was a good ten years older than her husband but always said that she was the same age. 

When I pressed my mother she said it didn't surprise her that her grandmother would have lied about her age (not really sure why she would think this though ). But I had noticed that in photos the great grandmother always looked a lot older than she should. Why on earth she would say she was ten years younger than she was, I have no idea - vanity I guess.

Anyway, the upshot of all this is that I wouldn't write the record off too easily.

Kath

[Tees]

Hi Kath,

Thanks for your reply--yes, it is common for many people to "lie" about their age at the time of marriage. I think it had nothing to do with being vanity but out of the societal "proper notions" about the sexes and the marriage ages.

It may be strange to us in the modern times but that was how things were done back then.

I am a bit concerned about getting wrong records and all.

I am trying to understand why I could not find my great-granny's father in the death records--I know Ireland was part of the UK that time and the laws are generally same, more or less--one cannot be buried without the death certificate, right?? If so, why couldn't I find him or her "mother"?  I have her "mother's" second husand's death certificate, not hers.

I will give it another go...I am waiting to hear from the parish church in Ireland--hopefully, they can shed some light on my great-granny's family. It sounds very complicated to me!!

Is Honora another form of Nora??

Thanks,

Tees

[MarieC]

Hi, Tees,

Since you haven't had a lot of response to your questions, I'll venture a couple of opinions based on my own experience.

There have been lots of threads on Rootschat about variations of Christian names.  Some of the number of variations are quite mind boggling!  I think it's very likely that Honora would have been shortened to Nora for general use.  Where have you found each of these names?  Ie, on what records?

I know from hard personal experience that it is extremely hard to search in Ireland (this is where you are searching, isn't it?)  Records can be chaotic and incomplete. 

Which records or indexes have you been searching?  It is not clear from your posts.  If 1837online or freebmd, these only cover England and Wales, not Ireland.  That would be why you can't find your great-granny's father.  But I may have misunderstood you.

Getting wrong certificates is an occupational hazard of this game, Tees!  Most of us here have a little (or a large!!!) collection of same.  I think you should order the birth cert. you have been thinking about.  I think it is a good chance that it is your great-granny, and that she lied about her age at some stage, and therefore worth a try.  If it is not the right one, at least you have eliminated that person from your searches!

Good luck.  Let us know how you go.

MarieC

[Tees]

Hi MarieC!!

Thank you so much for confirming that Honora may be another form for Nora!

It made a lot of sense now that there was a daughter named Nora living with my gggrandparents.

Oh, to answer your questions--I have requested few searches and ordered some certs from the GRO (in Dublin and now in Roscommon). Recently, I did some research on IGI (I know it is not 100% reliable)-however, the record on it matched the information I was given by a kind lady at the National Archives in Dublin last March.

I am starting to see the light as to why my great-granny thought her mother was what she always believe to be. It was due to the fact her real mother died some years back when she was very little--how can you remember your mother at that age?

This half-brother's parentage matches exactly what she stated on few documents over here (in the USA). Whereas I could not get any birth record on her from the GRO with the names she supplied.

Even the birth date does not help! It turned out that she was born before the year I thought was "correct."

At least, she had a sister named Honora born to the same parentage as she had.

This Nora used the surname of the second husband who married to her "mother." But this "mother" was Nora's father's second wife.

I am puzzled as to why I could not find Nora's father's death in register book. Umm....

Anyway, I will go ahead and order the certs as you suggested while I am waiting for the confirmation or reply from the Mallow Heritage Centre.

Yes, the records were quite chaotic in Ireland--it was largely due to the British rule and other laws involved. I think the records had been improved in late 19th century and it continues to be that way now.

Neverthless, it makes the researching very interesting, no???

Smile...

Thanks for your reply. Grateful that someone takes time to "confirm" my opinion as to whether I am in the right direction or not.

Gratefully yours,

Tees

[MarieC]

Interesting?  I'd use other words to describe the difficulties of researching in Ireland!! 

Mallow, eh?  I have rellies who were there for awhile - the Jephsons of Mallow Castle. 

Good luck with the certificates and your other searching, Tees!!  Let us know how you get on, won't you?  Hope you solve some of these mysteries.  Don't know about that mysterious death....!!

MarieC

[Tees]

Hi MarieC,

I will try my best to update this trend to let anyone know how I am getting on with this mysterious great-granny's birth record and her family.

I know we can go in a LONG, LONG list of descriptive words about the Irish records--but we know that Ireland have a tragic history for much of its history.

I guess it cannot be helped by many factors that Ireland had experienced whereas England & Wales and Scotland are fortunate that their records are much better off than in Ireland.

The majority of my family were/are from Ireland--it helps a lot if you know where your ancestors originally came from. I was fortunate that my mum's grandfather had a family bible which helped a lot. And the surname was not numerous in the certain part of Ireland.

As to other Irish ancestors, I am still struggling with them. Some of them were not well-educated or literate.

This great-granny I am working on--her death cert does not show her birth date at all--for her daughter left it blank because she did not know her birth date at all. Clearly, my great-granny was not sure of her birth date at all. But she "knew" it roughly...clearly, someone in her family back in Ireland wrote to her that her parents were, etc...without getting any verification or the information had faded with time or forgotten. I can only guess--however, I think it is particular that she knew her birthday was somewhere in the month of September--and it was noted on two different documents: naturalization paper and census. 15th September is even more specific to me.

As we know, in those days, you were not required to carry a birth cert with you to prove your age. That is probably why she did not know when exactly or what year she was born in.

Will update this trend with any new information--if it is POSITIVE. 

Kind regards,

Tees

[OzKat]

Best of luck and I hope you don't have to waste too much money on certs.
I've so far been ok with births in Ireland but deaths are a real pain. Even when GRONI writes back to get a confirmation that they have the cert you are after before they issue it they don't give you enough info to know so I invariably say yes and wait and see. But I have wasted some dosh along the way.  Still, I do have some death certificates which may be useful to someone else one day. Maybe I should post them somewhere and see.
Kath