James and Sarah Allen

[rayjoan]

I wonder if someone could help me with my brick wall?   My 3-great-grandfather was James Allen, born in Reading, BRK about 1792, according to the 1851 Census for Reading St. Giles (Ref HO107, 1692, Folio 559, page 26).   

His wife is "Sarah" and the census shows 2 children and a nephew living with them.  They also have a daughter named Emma (b. about 1811-1816) who married first to a James Blackall in 1834 at Henley, Oxford (he died in 1838)., with whom she had two children.   She married second to my 2-great-grandfather,  Charles Woods, in 1840 at Land End, Bucks.   

James would only be about 20 when Emma was born.   I am wondering if anyone can find Emma in church records and if there is any information about her parents and/or her birth date.    I have Emma's death certificate where her age at time of death is given as 79 but various ages were given in all the censuses.

Also......is there any record of a marriage for James and Sarah and does it show Sarah's maiden name?

Any help would be so much appreciated.   I have exhausted all of my resources.

Joan
New Brunswick, Canada.

[colinsorigins]

Hi Joan

If the 1851 census is correct, Sarah was born in Pangbourne between say 1799 and 1801.   If 1800 is correct she is Sarah Emmott born 16 mar.   If she was born in 1799 she is Cray or Dod, and if in 1801 she is Broadway or Champ.   All of this information is taken from the IGI.

Pangbourne is the first place I would check for Sarah's marriage.   Unfortunately this would not be in the IGI.   Berks Records Office could check this - it should cost about £10.

It is difficult to reconcile your dates and events.   If Sarah was born in 1800, it is very very unlikely that Emma was born before 1817.   She almost certainly was not baptized in Reading and if in Pangbourne it would not appear in the IGI;  I do not think she was born in Henley, although the marriage entry states of this parish.   If born after 1817, her age for marrying in 1834 becomes problematic.

I think to progress you need to obtain a copy of the entry in the PR for the 1834 marriage - you could approach Oxford FHS, or you need to buy the marriage certificate for the 1840 marriage. 

I hope this is more of a help than a hinderance

Colin

[HarryW]

Just to confuse the issue a little -

In the 1841 census:

HO107/36/12 Folio 4 Page 3
Reading St Mary
Alfred Street

James ALLEN, 55, Carpenter, born in county
Sarah ALLEN, 60,  , not born in county

There is no one else in the household.

As Sarah is shown born in Pangbourne in 1851, I wonder whether she is born in either Pangbourne or Whitchurch as these straddle the Thames and the county boundary ??

If this is the right couple - where is Elizabeth in 1841 ??

Regards
Harry

[rayjoan]

Thank you to Colin and Harry for your prompt replies and very good suggestions.    They sent me on a further search.

Re-checking Emma's death certificate (it is the correct one considering the attendant at death was her daughter-in-law, of whose marriage I have proven), and the age I thought read "79"  is actually  "70"!!  I hadn't noticed it before.  She died in 1890.  Her husband lived on until 1895 but was, apparently, senile.   So, that makes Emma's birth closer to 1820......or possibly the 1816 I thought it to be in the first place, according to ages given on the censuses throughout the years.  It appears she was a few years older than her husband, Charles.   The age of 70 at death may have been a close guess by the daughter-in-law?

I was very kindly given the information for the 1834 marriage by a gentleman from the Oxford Registry Office, along with the information about Emma's two children with James Blackall.   It was he who set me on the path that my Charles had married a widow.    I found their marriage certificate (dated 1840) through my local FHC.   They are both listed "of this parish" and she is described as Emma Blackall, widow.   I have one son's birth certificate (my great-grandfather) and she is listed as "Emma Woods, previously Allen".

Frustratingly, her marriage certificate says her father is "James" and there is no mother's name. 

I have seen all the "Sarah"s on the IGI who could possibly be James' wife.  One of them, Sarah Champ, married a James Allen in 1831 and Sarah Rolfe married a James Allen in 1833.    Sarah Emmett is the most likely one, of course, because of her place of birth but there is no marriage showing on the IGI.   

Unless Sarah was James' second wife,  the 1831 and 1833 dates are not feasible but the second marriage is certainly possible.
 
To answer the question,  "where is Elizabeth in 1841",  I'm not sure the James and Sarah shown in the 1841 Census as ages 55 and 60 would be the correct couple.   They were shown as 59 and 51 in 1851.  However, where are all of them in 1841? 

This genealogy is great fun but so puzzling!

Joan.

[colinsorigins]

Thank you for detailed exposition of the "James Allen brickwall".   It was fascinating to see how many avenues you have explored.

A major problem so far, is that vital marriages and baptisms may have been in Pangbourne, but the IGI has no entries after 1812 for baptisms and 1753 for marriages.   There are lots of entries for Allen in Pangbourne and I suspect that it could be the home village of James'  mother.   If I were in your position, I would borrow the Pangbourne PR on film at my FHC.   If you look it up in the LDS catalogue, the spelling is Pangbourn.

Your thoughts on Sarah being the second wife of James seem entirely logical and perhaps this better fits the facts by explaining the age of Elizabeth.  I can probably eliminate Sarah Champ as her marriage was put into the IGI by a church member but it does not appear in the extracted records by LDS in the IGI.   Sarah Rolfe looks interesting, especially if you could find her first marriage in Pangbourne.

I hope you do not mind me playing 'devil's advocate' but I did have a problem with Emma's age.   If she was born in 1820 or even after 1816, it is very unlikely this is the Emma that was married in Henley.   However, if Sarah is a second wife, her proposed birth in 1800 ceases to be an issue with respect to Emma's age.   Emma's mother could then be a similar age to James, and Emma could easily have been born between 1812 and 1816.   It seems to me that Emma's age on the marriage certificate in 1834 could be crucial, if it is 18 or over Sarah is the second wife.

I think I come back to the view that the Pangbourne PR could answer all your queries.

Happy hunting,

Colin

[rayjoan]

Hello Colin:

Thanks so much for your input.   First of all,  I have a list of Pangbourne (and while I was at it -- St. Giles) microfiches I am going to request from my FHC.   The centre we have is located over 60 miles away and is only open on Thursdays and Saturdays.  I have a phone number of an administrator there and she has given me permission to call her for requests so I needn't make an unnecessary trip.  I shall contact her tomorrow.

When the indices come, I'll need to request the documents but I'll investigate all the Sarahs of the time.   I shall also look up the name WOODS along with ALLEN as they are both of interest to me in the same area.

I certainly do not mind you playing devil's advocate.  It keeps me on my toes and thinking ahead! 

As for the Emma married in Henley.......I am 100% certain she is "my" Emma.  Here is my detective work on the subject.

My great-grandfather,  William Woods,  was born at Bermondsey in May, 1847.  His parents are listed as  "Charles Woods and Emma Woods (formerly Allen)". 

This was what set me on the search for Emma Allen.  I could find absolutely nothing about where she married a Charles Woods.  I was lost at that point.  To my rescue came a member of the Oxford Family History Society.   He suggested I might want to broaden my scope as he had a record of an Emma Allen marrying James Blackall in 1834 at Henley.   He also gave me the information about their two children.   I found out, consequently, that James Blackall died in 1838.

Now......armed with that information and hoping against hope,  I searched for a marriage between a Charles Woods and an Emma Blackall.   I found one on the IGI and it did set me back a bit as it was recorded at Lane End, Bucks.   (By the way....The marriage is now recorded on the FreeBMD (Wycombe) in the Mar 1840 quarter but with her name spelled incorrectly (Blockall).   I've sent in a correction, but it hasn't been done.)

I requested the microfilm from the FHC here and photocopied the original document.  It shows "Charles Woods, Batchelor (sic) of this Parish and Emma Blackhall (the spellings seem to differ a lot), widow of this Parish, married by banns, 17 February 1840.  It shows Charles as a "Tanner" which he most  certainly was and it shows their fathers as James Woods, Gardiner and James Allen, Labourer, both professions which show on all the censuses.   

On each census, though,  it shows Emma to be some 7 or 8 years older than Charles.   That's where my dilemma lays with respect to her age.  It is possible that James Allen was 19+ when Emma was born (if it were 1811+) and Emma may have a different mother than James' other children.  If I could find out Emma's mother's name (supposing it is not Sarah), I may be onto another run!   I am hoping the fiches I'm about to order will give me Emma's birth certificate or birth information.

You may very well be right that the Pangbourne PRs will answer some of my questions.   I shall let you know if they do!!  Meanwhile, if you have any other suggestions, please do let me know.

Thanks so much for your help.

Joan.

[colinsorigins]

Hi Joan

I think you need to check what you are about to order from FHC.   Microfiche records are usually a printout of what is already on the IGI.   I suspect you are about to order records 6904239 and 6908448 which are the IGI baptisms and marriages respectively.

Original parish records are always on film.   In the case of Pangbourne the records are spread over several films.   The film that carries on with dates immediately after the IGI entries is FHL British Film 1040561 and this is the one you need.

I live 3 miles away fro my FHC and I am quite prepared to take long shots.   But I do appreciate, living 60 miles from yours, it is essential for you to get it right.

The above film would amongst other things cover the birth of Emma and the marriage of James.   I would also to be looking to see if a Sarah married to become Sarah Rolfe.

Best wishes,

Colin

[rayjoan]

Hello Colin:

Thanks so much for your information about the microfiche records.  I didn't know that.  No one has ever explained that to me before.  I shall not order any of the records I'd intended to order and I shall order film #1040561.

I wonder why they don't have that information on the IGI if they have this film?  Is there some reason for that, do you know?

Would it be feasible for me to also order the previous number, 1040560?  Or would that be necessary?

I thank you so much for going to the trouble of looking this up for me.  I shall call my contact tomorrow and ask her to order the film for me.

I'll take your advice about Sarah Rolfe as well.   I now have several names in my head and shall carefully check them all.   You are right that I had better get it right the first time because of the distant to travel and the high prices of fuel!

Joan.

[newburychap]

I can probably eliminate Sarah Champ as her marriage was put into the IGI by a church member but it does not appear in the extracted records by LDS in the IGI. 

Sometimes church members can be more thorough than the extractor - as in this case.  I would definitely not eliminate Sarah Champ.

You should also check the PRs for the Sarah Rolfe marriage - I think you'll find that she was a widow and that James Allen may also have been a widower. Which could complicate things even further.....  However they did marry by licence so you may get aditional information from that (if you can find it).

The marriage is now recorded on the FreeBMD (Wycombe) in the Mar 1840 quarter but with her name spelled incorrectly (Blockall).   I've sent in a correction, but it hasn't been done.

Nor will it be done. FreeBMD aims to be a faithful transcript of the GRO Index (easily checked now the index is free at Ancestry).  In this instance FreeBMD is right - the index entry is for BLOCKALL.  So the error has crept into the system before the index was compiled or during its compilation. Either way FreeBMD are always keen to ask people not to submit errors in the index, only in their transcipt. As they say 'FreeBMD transcribes EXACTLY what is in the GRO Index. If the error is in the Index, we will NOT be able to apply your correction.'

What you should do is add what they call a postem (no idea where that word comes from) which allows you to add a note to the entry explaining your findings.  Sadly you cannot add any form of entry that would help some future researcher trying to find a BLACKALL and not thinking to check the BLOCKALL spelling.