Gardiner/Gardner

[Lemmey]

I've been tracing family for a few months but only using family word of mouth and census info.  However tracing my father's family is more complicated as his grandmother died young and his mother (my nan) was raised by someone else from the age of 5 so starting point for that side of the family was with my nan's birth certificate.

My nan's mother is named as Emily Gardiner on my nan's birth certificate.  However on her marriage certificate (to Alfred Skilton) she is named as Lemmey Jayne Harriet Gardiner.  The 'print out' if you look up the marriage on e.g Free BMD says Lemmey Payne Harriet but I've got a copy of the certificate and it looks like Jayne to me    Its definately the right person as the address is the same for Alfred on the marriage certificate as it is for both of them on the birth certificate.

Her father is named as Noah Gardiner on the wedding certificate so I looked him up on the 1901 census.  He is down as Gardner with a daughter Jane of the right age.

The census listed several families with an address of Bottom Barn, Court Farm.  It also says see page 54.  On page 54 it simply says Court Farm, Gypsies.

Also listed as Gypsies alongside the Gardners 'at' Bottom Barn are the following families:  Curtis, Cooper, Lee, Deighton, Dilloway.

I can find no trace of Lemmey/Emily/Jane's birth certificate but would love to know which name she started with.  Calling children by their second name is still a family tradition so her being Jane on census and Lemmey/Emily on certificates seems about right   

Being rather new to this does anyone know how I can find if her name is actually Lemmey or Emily?  Plus is the confusion regarding first names usual? 

Edited to add - any hints on tracing Romany Roots also much appreciated. 

[casalguidi]

Hi Lemmey

You mention having found a possible family in the 1901 census - have you found them in 1891?

If not, do post all the details for the whole family (names/ages/birthplaces)from 1901 and I'm sure somebody will take a look for you.

There is a birth registered for a Lemintina GARDNER in Surrey 1864 - too early for yours but I wouldn't be surprised if she were related somehow - travelling families often used the same names for several generations.

Casalguidi

[Manchester Rambler]

This could be the same family in 1891:

RG12/602; Folio 81; Page 45
6 Simmons Cotts, Mitcham, Surrey

Noah Gardner - Head - 40 - Hawker
Clara Gardner - Wife - 38
(?)Caroline Gardner - Dau - 15
Elizabeth Gardner - Dau - 13 - Scholar
Mary Ann Gardner - Dau - 10 - Scholar
Jane Gardner - Dau - 6 - Scholar
Leman Gardney - Dau - 3
Henry Gardner - Son - 6m - b. Mitcham

All except Henry born Carshalton, Surrey.

Rambler

[Lemmey]

Thanks for the reply Casalguidi.  Particularly the information on Lemintina which would make more sense of the unusual name Lemmey.  Plus Emily sounds similar enough for her to be known as/mistaken as afterwards and you don't need to show your birth certificate to register a child's birth I think  

1901 Census:  Bottom Barn, Court Farm, District Godstone

Noah Gardner age 50, FieldLabourer
Richard Gardner, 6; Sarah Gardner, 3; Harry Gardner, 8; Jane Gardner, 16

All listed as born Croydon, Surrey

1891 Census: No 6 Simmons Cottages, Parish of Mitchum, Rural District of Croydon  (not listed as gypsies)

Noah Gardner age 40, Hawker
Clara Gardner, 38
Caroline Gardner, 15; Elizabeth Gardner, 13; Henry Gardner, 6 months; Jane Gardner, 6; Leman (?) Gardner, 3 (girl); Mary Ann Gardner, 10.

Birthplace given as all born in Carshalton, Surrey


Found on BDM - Elizabeth Gardiner born Jun 1878, Epsom, Surrey
Mary Ann Gardiner born Jan/Feb/Mar, Epsom, Surrey
Henry William Gardiner, born 1890, Croydon, Surrey

Am assuming 1891 family are same family as found in 1901 because of Noah and Jane.  Caroline, Elizabeth and Mary Ann would have been old enough to have left (Lemmey/Emily married at 20)  However they would still have to have lost 2 children Leman and Henry (unless Henry is Harry and the age is 2 years out)

[Lemmey]

This could be the same family in 1891:

Rambler

Thanks Rambler.  Glad you think they are a possible too.

It took me so long to type that lot out that by the time I had you had posted and I couldn't bear risking losing it to look at your post first, sorry. 

[casalguidi]

There is a "Lenny" Harriet GARDNER baptised Carshalton Surrey 5 Feb 1887 dau of Noah and Elizabeth

This doesn't quite fit with a registration of birth for a Leamantinia Harriett GARDENER registered in the March quarter of 1888 Epsom Surrey ref. 2a 11

I wonder if these could be the same person ................ ie a mistranscription on the date from the baptism register

Possible siblings Elizabeth 28 Mar 1880, Jane 28 Dec 1884 also baptised Carshalton

Casalguidi

[casalguidi]

I think I've just realised something

In the GRO marriage index it says "Lemmey Tayne" (Lemmey Tayne = Lemmentina or whatever pronounciation they were using) so I think she was probably Lementina Harriett GARDENER - not Jane at all

Casalguidi

[Lemmey]

There is a "Lenny" Harriet GARDNER baptised Carshalton Surrey 5 Feb 1887 dau of Noah and Elizabeth

This doesn't quite fit with a registration of birth for a Leamantinia Harriett GARDENER registered in the March quarter of 1888 Epsom Surrey ref. 2a 11

Aha I notice the Gardener/Gardiner/Gardner is spelt differently yet again.

Just to confuse things further I estimated Lemmey Jayne Harriet Gardiner must have been born estimated 1886 because she is 20 when she marries in 1906.

Leman Gardner I estimated to be born in 1888.  So I wonder if Leamantinia Harriet born 1888 is Leman?  And 'Lenny' baptised 1887 is Lemmey Jane Harriet?  Sisters with similar names?

Possible siblings Elizabeth 28 Mar 1880, Jane 28 Dec 1884 also baptised Carshalton

I estimate the Elizabeth I found would have been born approx 1878.  And the Jane I have I was assuming was Lemmey as she is estimated born 1886.

Thanks for all your help.  Much appreciated.  Can I ask how/where you have been looking up the info you have given me?  

Casalguidi

[Lemmey]

I think I've just realised something

In the GRO marriage index it says "Lemmey Tayne" (Lemmey Tayne = Lemmentina or whatever pronounciation they were using) so I think she was probably Lementina Harriett GARDENER - not Jane at all

Casalguidi

Hi Casalguida

Much thanks for all this looking up you are doing.

Yes I know it says Lemmey Tayne.  I actually found that after I sent for a copy of the certificate.

I can 100% assure myself the marriage certificate says Lemmey Jayne Harriet Gardiner. 

The J in Jayne does look similar to the T in Thomas (husband's middle name) but its not quite the same.  I think it looks like Jayne rather than Tayne.  In fact if I hand't have seen the GRO afterwards I would have just read it as Lemmey Jayne Harriet Gardiner and wondered over the Lemmey rather than the Jayne.