Dumfriesshire lookup 1841/1851

[emarbe]

William Walter Bryden (age 25) was married in England in 1865 and I have checked the 1861 census for England but he is not there. Prior to 1900 his age on the various census's indicated that he was born about 1840 in Dumfriesshire, but on the 1901 it states he is 63.
His marriage certificate gives his father's name as John Bryden, occupation, Ironmonger.
I have all of the information on him after he was married, but nothing for Scotland.
If anyone can help I would be very grateful.

Mike

[ScottishAncestry]

Hi Mike,

This is quite a puzzler you have here. The only likely candidate in 1841 is a William Bryden born about 1841 who is living in Lochmaben with who appears to be his father John and his Grandfather Robert. No sign of a mother though. This is the same family in the 1851 census. Not sure what has happened to John though? I will keep digging but let me know what your thoughts are on this family.

1851
Lochmaben Parish,
Book 1, Page 19
Braegate Street, Lochmaben
Robert Bryden; Head; Married; 75; Bailie; Retired Farmer; Dumfries, Lochmaben
Elizabeth Bryden; Wife; Married; 60; Dumfries, Kirkmahoe
James Bryden; Son; Unmarried; 30; Carpenter; Master; Dumfries, Lochmaben
William Bryden; Grand Son; 11; Scholar; Dumfries, Tinwald
Elizabeth Bryden; Grand Daur; 10; Scholar; Dumfries, Lochmaben

Emma

[emarbe]

Hi Emma

Well, I didn't expect to get a response this quick, thank you very much, you're a gem.

I have had another look at the various English census returns I've got and it's confusing.
In 1871 he is 31 born Scotland.
In 1881 he is 41 born Dumfries, Scotland.
In 1891 he is 52 born Scotland.
In 1901 he is 63 born Scotland.
On William's marriage certifificate in 1865 it doesn't say that John is deceased, although he could have been.

The 1851 entry you found sounds promising, but on the 1841 does it say whether John is married or a widower and what is his occupation and age?.
The annoying thing with some census returns is that it doesn't show a middle name, if they had one, as this can single people out, still that would make things too easy!!.

Again thanks for your help.

Mike

[MonicaL]

Pure specultation here!

The Elizabeth age 10, g/daughter, showing on the 1851 census I think might be a sister to William.

There's an entry on IGI for this christening:

ELIZABETH BRYDEN Christening: 16 NOV 1840  Lochmaben, Dumfries, Scotland Parents: Father: JOHN BRYDEN    Mother:ELIZA GRIERSON

There's no marriage showing for John and Elizabeth until 1846. It may be that the first two children were illegitimate?

JOHN BRYDEN  Marriages: Spouse: ELIZABETH GRIESON    
Marriage:  16 JAN 1846  Lochmaben, Dumfries, Scotland

On the 1851 Census, like you Emma, couldn't see an entry for John, however this entry made me wonder whether John may have died prior to the 1851 Census:

BRYDEN Elizabeth, head of household, widow, 31, born Lochmaben Dms
BRYDEN Jannet, daughter of Elizabeth Bryden, 2, born Lochmaben Dms
BRYDEN William, son of Elizabeth Bryden, 4, born Lochmaben Dms
GRIERSON Francis, brother of Elizabeth Bryden, CARPENTER, 22, born Lochmaben Dms
GRIERSON Jane, sister of Elizabeth Bryden, 11, born Lochmaben Dms
SHANKLAND Jannet, niece of Elizabeth Bryden, 4, born Tundergarth Dms

Address: Templand(840), Lochmaben



Janet the daughter above shows on IGI:

JANET EWART BRYDEN  Christening:  09 JAN 1849  Lochmaben, Dumfries, Scotland.
Parents:Father: JOHN BRYDEN Mother: ELIZABETH GRIERSON

Regards.

Monica
   

[emarbe]

Hello Monica

Thank you for replying, I'm even more confused now.

On the 1851 census that Emma found, William is 10, born in Tinwald, whereas on yours he is only 4, born in Lochmaben, but everything points to him being born around 1840.

I looked on the IGI for his christening but couldn't find anything and the annoying thing is that his middle name is the key to this as there seem to be several Williams around the same age in Dumfriesshire, but nobody with a middle initial.

The other problem I have found is that there seem to be quite a few John Brydens, although none connected with a William, until now.

This is obviously not going to be very straightforward, but thanks for your help.

Regards .................... Mike

[MonicaL]

I've just been doing a few more searches. I realised that we have two Williams and that worries me for this family group.

Leaving aside (for a mo!) whether this is your William. Certainly John and Eliza Grierson don't appear to have been married when their daughter Elizabeth, showing in the household with Grandparents Robert and Elizabeth, was born. The other grandchild William showing as born in Tinwald, we can only assume may have been John's child at this stage. There's nothing on IGI but this as you know is not a 100% on its records. Unfortunately, the 1841 Census does not give relationships within a household.

It would appear that William and Elizabeth lived with their grandparents in 1841 and 1851. Elizabeth is still with them in 1861 but not William.

Now, just following through with this family. John and Eliza married in 1846 and had two more children and here comes the second William (Eliza's father was called William). John Bryden then died between 1849-51 when Eliza shows as a widow.

She didn't remarry and died in 1893 in Lochmaben. Husband John Bryden shows as having been a Railway Porter. Daughter Elizabeth married in 1866. Her father John, Railway Porter, shows as deceased.

Everything looks good..........apart from the second William!

Monica

[MonicaL]

From the 1881 Census, if I'm looking at the correct entry, did William only have sons and no daughters? I was wondering if there were any clues there.

Monica

[emarbe]

Hello Monica

The fact that William did not appear on the English 1861 census made me think he should be on the Scotland one, although it is quite possible that his father had died by this time. John Bryden is shown as an Ironmonger, but what might help is that when he married in 1865, William's occupation was a Merchant and at some point after that he owned a large drapery store, so he was obviously a well educated man.

Mike

[MonicaL]

Mike

Going back to the 1851 Census, and with the info re occupation for William, this is the only other option I can see:

BRYDEN Ann, daughter of Margaret Bryden, DRESSMAKER, 35, born Troqueer Kbt
BRYDEN Catherine, daughter of Margaret Bryden, MILLINER, 30, born Troqueer Kbt
BRYDEN John, grandson of Margaret Bryden, SADDLER apprentice, 16, born Dumfries Dms
BRYDEN Margaret, head of household, widow, 72, born Canonbie Dms
BRYDEN Robert, grandson of Margaret Bryden, 11, born Dumfries Dms
BRYDEN Thomas, grandson of Margaret Bryden, PAINTER apprentice, 18, born Dumfries Dms
BRYDEN William, grandson of Margaret Bryden, 14, TAILOR apprentice, born Dumfries Dms
GORDON Marion, boarder in household of Margaret Bryden, ANNUITANT, 81,
born Dumfries Dms
MAREN Helen, SERVANT, 19, b Dumfries Dms

Address: 119 High Street(821), Dumfries


Now to make sense of that family!

Monica