Re: Cheshire Parish Records Marriages only pre 1837

[Chrissy13]

Hi Peter and anyone else who may be able to help me,

I'm researching the Hulse family from Wharton/Over. (GGF) He ran away from home in about 1880 and the family he left have been really difficult to pin down.  I am looking for information on his father, John Hulse born aobut 1833 and his grandfather Samuel Hulse.  Plus any other Hulses in Wharton from this period.  They were watermen.

I'm from NZ so this is a long distance plea!!!

Thanks (waiting hopefully!)

[peterbennett]

Hi

      Firstly can you tell us who it was that ran away from home, so that we make sure we are tracing the right family (a lot of John Hulse's in the area)

     Anthing else you know about John and his father Samuel, who did they marry and do you have any census info?

peterbennett

[Chrissy13]

Thanks Peter.

John Hulse (born 1867) left home (Wharton/Over) at the age of 13 or 14.  I have his marriage certificate which showed that his father was also called John and was a labourer.  Family talk is that his family were 'sea captains',  however. 

I have bought all three John Hulse certificates for the year he was born - he was 21 when married, so was born in 1867.  There were 4 Johns from Winsford that year (!!!!!!!) but the first would have been 22 at marriage so I eliminated him.

Of the other three, one had a father called Thomas so was also not my GGF's family. 

Of the remaining, one John Hulse had a Waterman as a father (married to Hannah Clarke) and on the census forms had three brothers, Nathan, Samuel (died aged and William.  Family lore talked of accidents at sea, so I think that this family may be the one.  This John Hulse and Hannah married in Birkenhead (another certificate!) and his father was called Samuel, a waterman again.

The other John Hulse's father was a Coal yard manager with a wife called Ann (hardly a labourer).  I can't find anything about either John's (the sons) after the 1881 censuses in Winsford, but can follow my ancestor John Hulse (married Jessie) in Burton, Wirral.

My questions are:

1. Which John Hulse is my GGF ?

2. What happened to the John Hulse, son of John and Ann the coal yard manager? Could he have ran away to Burton and be my ancestor?

3. I think my John Hulse (born 1867) maybe the waterman's Hulse.  His father John was born about 1833, married to Hannah Clarke and John's father was Samuel, but I can't find record of this John Hulse in the 1841 or 1851 censuses, only when he was married to Hannah by 1861. 

So I can't go further back to trace descendents but also without being absolutely sure which John Hulse he was, there's not much point anyway!

Can anyone give me any info at all??

Where do I go from here? 

Any help would be wonderful, advice or anything!

Thanks

[peterbennett]

Hi

1841 census HO107-121-16-F10-P14 Chapel Row Wharton

Nancy Hulse 50
Sarah Jane 10
John 8

There is a death record for a Nancy Hulse dated 1842 and a
Marriage for a Samuel Hulse and a Hannah Vernon at All Saints Runcorn dated 1849.
http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/

1851 census HO107-2166-F215 P6 Chapel Row Wharton

Hannah Hulse wife marr 51 wife of waterman  born St Helens Lancashire.
Sarah J daug 20 dress maker Wharton
John son 18 waterman Wharton

Chapel Row is the next Street to Winsford Hill where your John was in 1871.

Just a pity that the father Samuel is away in 41/51

hope this helps a bit

peterbennett

[Chrissy13]

Peter wrote,

' hope this helps a bit'

What a master of understatement!

I have woken up in NZ and found your enlightening answers and I'm absolutely thrilled to bits (as only an amateur genealogist can be!!),

Thank you very much Peter.

It all links together now.  I had already sent off for Sarah Jane's marriage certificate only a couple of days ago, to see if she also had Samuel as a father.  I had hoped that she and 8yr old John (in 1841) were siblings.  So it was my thought too.   Of course Nancy may not be a parent, but an aunt or a grandmother? 

I had no idea that Samuel married again, (to Hannah Vernon) so will try and get hold of that certificate.  That would be wonderful as it would show who Samuel's father was - another great lead in the detective story.

I am really very grateful for your help Peter.  It is most appreciated and has made a kiwi lass (a Hulse from Cheshire originally) very happy!

 

[peterbennett]

Hi

    Pleased to be of help. There are so many possibles in this line its difficult to be certain who is who.

There is a death record for a Nancy Hulse dated 1842 and a
Marriage for a Samuel Hulse and a Hannah Vernon at All Saints Runcorn dated 1849.

The above are of course only theory, but are in the right area of Cheshire so need to eliminated or not.

Also something to keep in mind is that Nancy is also used as a nickname for Ann as well as a name in its own right.
Ann and Hannah are commonly used together for the same person, (thought I would add to the confusion a bit)

John Hulse (born 1867) left home (Wharton/Over) at the age of 13 or 14.  I have his marriage certificate which showed that his father was also called John and was a labourer.  Family talk is that his family were 'sea captains',  however. 

I find it a little difficult to understand why your John married to Jessie is a "farmer" in 1891 and describes his father John as a labourer in the marriage certificate. Clearly the census details I found does not look to be the right family ? The father John married to Hannah Clarke is also a waterman.

Is your family stories of seamen right ?

peterbennett

[Chrissy13]

Hi Peter,

Thanks again for all your help.  I know what you mean about the discrepancy between John's marriage certificate (where his father was written in as ' labourer'  and the fact that I can only find watermen as possible relatives.  It had driven me crazy and led to me buying all the John Hulse birth certificates for the relevant year.

When I put it to my parents, they said that the John Hulse who ran away from home couldn't read or write at that time.  He first worked at the cornmill near Burton when he ran away from home and went on to marry the miller's daughter eventually.  He was a carrier and a farmer in the early years.  His new wife taught him to read and my parents insist that people in those days often weren't too bothered about what was written on certificates, or even if they knew it was wrong, were too deferential of 'authority' to insist they altered it.

In another family line we have personal experience of a surname being written incorrectly in the mid 1800's on a birth certificate (no one in the family was literate) and it was incorrect for over 50 yrs in lots of documents until  both names were eventually entered on a certificate in the 1900s and it was back on track again!  Very confusing for genealogists though!

We have family lore of working at sea and even an accident at sea, which if the family were labourers I don't think would be right.  But who knows?  I know that we often try and get possible ancestors to fit the mould that we wish in order to make them 'ours' and that's the last thing I want to do.

So probably I'm going to have to order yet more certificates and keep trying for more 'proof'. 

Dear me.......will I ever get there? 

Thanks very much Peter.  Your help is very appreciated.

[peterbennett]

Hi

   Do you have the witness names from John and Jessies marriage certificate, they may be worth a search to see if there is a connection to one or other of the John's.

We have family lore of working at sea and even an accident at sea

Just as an aside the watermen never really went to sea, they would be carring goods on barges (mainly salt from the Winsford area) up and down the canals and rivers to Liverpool, Manchester and South to Birmingham and all stops inbetween.

Sorry if I seem to be picking holes in watermen theory 

peterbennett

[Chrissy13]

Hi Peter,

No, I'm really glad to have an objective opinion -thank you. 

You know what it's like - we SO want the nice little story to fit all together , but I want the hard evidence and if it's not there then I'm just not satisfied.

The witnesses to the marriage of John and Jessie were relations of Jessie (father and brother) so again, no links with the past for John Hulse.  I have nothing concrete really, just the fact that his father was also called John and the occupation was 'labourer' - but it may not have been correct of course. 

My problem is that there are no John Hulses with sons of my great grandfather's age with the correct age and correct father's occupation.  Where do I go from here? 

I have nothing but the family stories of 'sea captains' which may really be about 'captains' of barges.  In my research I have seen that there may just be two men running a barge but one would have been called the 'master' or 'captain' and the other the 'mate' . 

I've tried to enlist more help from relatives but we're struggling to find any old relatives who may remember something useful.

Thanks very much for your input.  I'm very grateful.   I'm determined to find out who he really was - which John Hulse - it's become very important ......

(My name is Tulip and I'm a genealogy addict   )

Thanks again.