Greenwich Pensioners

[Jennifer Jackson]

I was wondering if someone could explain to me what a Greenwich Pensioner is?  I have an ancestor who I found in the 1851 census whose occupation is listed as a Sawyer and a Greenwich Pensioner.   The previous census in 1841, his occupation is listed as Sawyer.  Can anyone explain to me what both of these occupations are and are they related in anyway?

Thank you for any information you can provide.

[Wendi]

Hi Jacksbox and Welcome to Rootschat

A Greenwich Pensioner is someone who had served as a seaman.

This link to The National Maritime Museum may help

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conWebDoc.17938

A sawyer is someone who works with wood, in a sawmill, or the like, perhaps providing wood for the mines

Can you post his name & place of birth?

Wendi 

[Jennifer Jackson]

Thank you for your reply.  I am looking for John Harris b.1789,  in Neath, Glamorgan, Wales, d. abt. 1863; married to Mary Gilmore (date unknown).  Mary Gilmore b. abt. 1795, in Ireland, d. 1875.  John and Mary emigrated to the US in 1854 and I found them with one of their sons, William, coming through the New Orleans port.  On the ships passenger list, John and Mary Harris's surname is spelled Harries. 

I have been told that John Harris's father is David Harris b. 1743, in Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales and was married to a woman by the name of Elinor.  I have not been able to find any information on this family to verify that they are truly John's parents.

Any ideas on where to begin? 

Thank you for your time and willingness to share your knowledge.

Jennifer

[Valda]

A Greenwich pensioner is someone who served in the Royal Navy and not as a merchant seaman though he may have done both as he would have been at sea before the concept of continuous service in the navy for seamen. Because he was in receipt of a pension there will be records of John's navy service in The National Archives

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=41

The records will not help with parentage.

The 1851 census does not confirm a birthplace of Neath.

1851 HO107 2463 folio 182
Green Neath  Glamorgan   
John Harris 62  St Brides, Glamorgan, Wales Head Married Sawyer Greenwich pensioner
Mary Harris 55  Ireland Wife Married 
William Harris  19  Neath, Glamorgan, Wales Son Sawyer 

There are three St. Bride's in Glamorgan

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/StBridesSuperEly/

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/StBridesMajor/

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/StBridesMinor/

For the period you are interested in only St Brides Super Ely has parish register coverage on the IGI. There appears no candidate on the IGI (taken from actual parish registers as opposed to Mormon church members submissions about a birth/baptism in Neath) which would lead to the conclusion John's baptism occurred either at St. Bride's Major or St. Bride's Minor.

1841 census HO107 1421/ 23 folio 13 page 17
Green Street Neath  Glamorgan   
John Harris 50  born Glamorgan, Wales Sawyer
Mary Harris 45 born Ireland 
Mary Harris 18 born Glamorgan, Wales
Morgan Harris 15 born Glamorgan, Wales
Ann Harris 12  born Glamorgan, Wales
William Harris 10 born Glamorgan
Jane Harris 7 born Glamorgan, Wales 

Adult ages over the age of 15 usually rounded down to the nearest 5 on the 1841 census.

St Bride's major was a parish by the sea. St Bride's Minor is inland. Since he was a seaman at some point perhaps a search in St. Bride's Major parish registers might be the best starting point.
Glamorgan family History Society has produced a microfiche transcript of the parish registers.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~wlsglfhs/fiche4.htm#Church%20&%20Chapel%20Registers

or perhaps some one would do a look up for you in either.

Regards

Valda

[Jennifer Jackson]

Valda,

Thank you for your prompt response.  I truly appreciate your assistance.  I looked at the 1851 census again and realized as you have stated that John was born in St. Brides, Glamorgan, Wales.  I think due to my inexperience with Welsh research and the geography of Wales, I was thinking that St. Brides was a parish located within the town of Neath.  When I googled St. Brides, Wales, it appears to be a distance from Neath.

You had mentioned that in the 1841 census it was not uncommon for the adult ages over 15 to be rounded down to the nearest 5.  I didn't realize this.  Was this a common practice in Wales on all of the censuses, or is it only applicable to the 1841 census?

Thank you again for your assistance.  I truly appreciate your help.  If I can be of assistance to you if you need something in the US, please let me know and I will see what I can do to help you.

Sincerely,

Jennifer

[Valda]

Jennifer

The links I gave you have maps for each of the St. Brides placing them within the county of Glamorgan and showing their relationship to the coast and also to Neath - none of them are adjacent to Neath.

Only on the 1841 census for both England and Wales were the census enumerators instructed to round adult ages down to the nearest 5 - for anyone over the age of 15. They don't always do it and they sometimes give exact ages but you can never tell with anyone whose age ends in a 5 or a 0.


I am interested in in trying to work out how to obtain a will from Pennsylvania. I'm probably flushed with success at obtaining a will from Illinois. It wasn't just a will is was the equivalent of a tree of documentation - everything in triplicate and then some more besides! Texas on the other hand doesn't seem to have got around to compulsory civil registration until about 1940 so I sort of gave up there. Wales and England in comparison to those sort of state wide differences have very similar sytems.

Regards

Valda

[chinakay]

An interesting historical note is that it was a hanging offence to impersonate a Greenwich pensioner, or a Chelsea pensioner (army). Presumably because one would be receiving government pension money to which one was not entitled.

Cheers,
China

[Jennifer Jackson]

Valda,

If you can provide me with some information about the person you are looking for the will in Pennsylvania, I will see if I can help you in your quest.  You can email with the information if you would like.  Let me know.

Jennifer